22:00 <@benzea> lets try this again
22:00 <@andreasn> hey
22:00 <@benzea> ah, hbons already started :-)
22:00 <@hbons> hi
22:00 <@thos> hello
22:01 <@thos> good evening!
22:01 -!- galtom [~galtom@host-87-242-37-87.prtelecom.hu] has joined #gnome-art
22:01 <@hbons> good, we actually have people around:)
22:01 < ztefn> hi
22:01 <@benzea> so, I guess everyone is there, do should we have a look at hbons draft thing?
22:01 <@benzea> http://www.bomahy.nl/hylke/wip/gnome-art-roadmap-draft.pdf
22:02 <@benzea> yeah, looks like some new faces even :-)
22:03 <@benzea> I wonder how much overlap there is with the user experience hackfest
22:03 <@hbons> a lot, i think
22:04 <@andreasn> I
22:04 <@hbons> andreasn?
22:04 <@andreasn> I've been mostly been looking into animations this week
22:04 -!- eve [~emcglynn@wirefire.akamai.com] has joined #gnome-art
22:04 <@andreasn> http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUIHackfest/
22:05 <@Cimi> hi guys
22:05 -!- dobey [~dobey@ip24-254-227-77.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #gnome-art
22:05 <@Cimi> hi dobey 
22:06 <@hbons> what i'd like to know is if there's a good way to do such animations
22:06 <@hbons> devs?
22:06 < dobey> hi Cimi 
22:06 <@andreasn> we've been divided into four groups. Animation, File Management, Window Management and Widgets
22:06 <@benzea> hbons: on the GTK+ level there isn't any support really
22:06 < dobey> what kinds of animations?
22:06 <@andreasn> hbons: we have been intentionally not been considered that yet
22:07 <@hbons> dobey: http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUIHackfest/EffectsAndAnimations
22:07 <@benzea> andreasn: makes sense
22:07 <@andreasn> some is probably on the window management side and some on the toolkit side, or some other place
22:07 < dobey> some of that is probably a "bit much" 
22:07 -!- heuermh [c6ae6e93@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #gnome-art
22:08 <@andreasn> dobey: yeah, and we need to figure out how to make nice, but not too much
22:08 <@andreasn> so that stuff don't get annoying
22:08 <@benzea> I remember the checkbox animation, clearlooks did have something at some point
22:08 <@hbons> yeah, not on things you do every minute
22:08 < dobey> the first "toolbars should slide in/out" i think is too much :)
22:08 <@hbons> but more for new features
22:08 <@benzea> I think some people clicked twice because it did not react fast enough
22:09 <@andreasn> so yeah, some stuff are good, some are crap
22:09 < dobey> the drag/drop bits probably make the most sense
22:10 < dobey> the 1px line that you get now can be hard to judge
22:10 <@benzea> it is nice to have these ideas though (also thinking about what GTK+ might need to handle at some point)
22:10 <@hbons> i really like the sound suggestions
22:10 < dobey> i think the treeview drag/drop animation could be done with the offscreen stuff
22:10 <@benzea> yup, but having it follow the mouse with inertia could be too much again :-)
22:11 <@andreasn> me and eve want to do a lot more experiments with animation in the following months
22:11 <@andreasn> eve is a UI designer at Red Hat btw
22:11 < eve> hi all
22:11 <@hbons> hi
22:11 <@benzea> hello
22:12 < dobey> ugh. the wiki can't embed the flash movies for some reason
22:12 <@hbons> the making room in a treeview is a good improvement i think
22:12 <@benzea> flash is evil :-)
22:12 <@hbons> i've suggested it for pidgin, when people log in/out
22:12 <@andreasn> benzea: it's the best we have, mizmo suggested inkscape+screen recording
22:13 <@andreasn> so I'll try that
22:13 <@thos> hbons, i'm not sure the wallpaper contest was a good idea btw
22:13 <@hbons> andreasn: moonlight is great for these UI animations
22:13 <@benzea> andreasn: nah, I guess it is OK
22:13 <@andreasn> hbons: I need to try that
22:13 <@benzea> swfdec to the rescue :-)
22:13 <@hbons> andreasn: just ping me if you need helo with it:)
22:14 <@hbons> thos: maybe
22:14 <@andreasn> benzea: I still have to use flash to create and edit stuff though
22:14 <@hbons> thos: or we can just search flickr for nice wallpapers, and ask permission/pay the author
22:14 <@benzea> ah, true
22:14 <@thos> hbons, or get some of our very talented artists to come up with something? ;-)
22:15 <@andreasn> or keep the old ones and do new one if they feel like crap in two years
22:15 <@andreasn> new ones
22:15 -!- vdepizzol [~user@201.79.208.249] has joined #Gnome-art
22:15 <@andreasn> hi vdepizzol!
22:15 < vdepizzol> Hey!
22:15 <@thos> hbons, i guess the one thing missing from your proposal is how distros tend to throw away our work and replace it with their own
22:15 <@hbons> getting crowded:)
22:16  * vdepizzol is late
22:16 <@hbons> thos: in what way?
22:16 <@andreasn> so we need to communicate more then I guess
22:17 <@thos> hbons, distros treat the artwork/themes as a way of branding
22:17 <@Cimi> distro never stops doing their shit (ubuntu's next oxygen icon themes inside gnome)
22:17 <@hbons> i don't think theres much we can do about that...
22:17 <@Cimi> ubuntu is gonna using an oxygen icon theme for 9.04
22:17 <@benzea> seriously, there is no way to stop distros doing it
22:18 <@Cimi> yeah
22:18 <@benzea> and it is one thing that makes each distribution different
22:18 <@Cimi> it is their brand
22:18 <@Cimi> maybe what we can do is improving the gtk and metacity theme
22:18 <@benzea> it is a bid sad though how much effort is done downstream instead of inside GNOME, where a lot of improvements can be done
22:18 <@hbons> i think it's also boredom
22:18 < dobey> i don't think ubuntu has made some final decision on artwork
22:18 <@Cimi> so they could just change colors and icons
22:18 <@hbons> KDE4 isn't changed much
22:18 <@thos> hbons, KDE4 isn't used much? ;-)
22:19 <@Cimi> :)
22:19 <@andreasn> hbons: maybe we want to remove the UI design bits from the roadmap, since it's UI design bits
22:19 <@hbons> that too:)
22:19 <@thos> andreasn, hbons, maybe we need to concentrate on something really simple and achievable, that doesn't require much maintance?
22:20 <@hbons> andreasn: yeah, i didn't want to get in the way with that, just wanted to point out the spacing, etc.
22:20 <@thos> that way not too much effort is wasted if distros throw it away, but it also looks super slick
22:20 <@andreasn> ok
22:20 <@andreasn> thos: regarding the roadmap?
22:20 < garrett> ok, hi
22:20 <@thos> andreasn, yeah
22:21 <@thos> andreasn, so focus on just three themes instead of five or something
22:21 < garrett> was presenting some stuff in the GUI Hackfest (:
22:21 <@hbons> i'd say one theme
22:21 <@thos> andreasn, and three backgrounds instead of ten or something
22:21 <@Cimi> I'd say one theme + colorscheme support
22:21 < dobey> fixing up the new tango-icon-theme is not much maintenance. it's pretty much just a matter of getting all the artwork done
22:21 <@thos> hbons, well, distros do not tent to create their own extra themes
22:21 <@thos> hbons, just one default
22:21 <@thos> hbons, the rest they leave in
22:21 <@Cimi> yeah
22:21 < dobey> would be nice to get all the gnome-icon-theme-extras device icons into the single canvas workflow too
22:21 <@Cimi> like the horrible new ubuntu theme :)
22:22 <@hbons> we can do one default theme which will be rocking, and move all the rest to extras
22:22 <@benzea> use the script magic, and retouch :-)
22:22 <@benzea> btw. how much is already moved to the one canvas workflow?
22:22 <@andreasn> dobey: I've started some work on that, but far from done
22:22 <@hbons> and leave the themeing up to people who want to make stuff
22:22 <@andreasn> oh, yeah, the script
22:22 < dobey> andreasn: on tango, or on extras? :P
22:22 <@andreasn> extras
22:23 <@andreasn> jimmac and lapo have been doing the tango bits, right?
22:23 < dobey> benzea: just the stuff in tango-icon-theme on fd.o
22:23 < dobey> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/
22:24 <@benzea> doesn't look like much
22:24 < dobey> and what's in tango-icon-library for the "assets"
22:24 <@hbons> what do you guys think of Tango base set as the default icon theme? as i think the main reason for leaving it out was the licensing
22:25 < dobey> hbons: no, the main reasons were political
22:25 <@benzea> maybe we could make tango an external dependency of GNOME?
22:25 <@hbons> political?
22:25 < dobey> hbons: we wanted to make sure as much as possible that people didn't see tango as "gnome forcing stuff on kde"
22:25 -!- halfline [~rstrode@lan-nat-pool-bos.redhat.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:25 <@thos> hbons, on the case of the splash screen, i wonder if it would be better just to display some animation (if you're going to have a splash screen at all)
22:25 < dobey> hbons: which is what a lot of people thought in the beginning
22:25 <@hbons> thos: yeah
22:26 <@andreasn> thos: would be cool with a spinner or something, and mccann wants to do that as well
22:26 < dobey> hbons: if tango would have been the default gnome theme, then all those people would have been right
22:26 <@benzea> heh
22:26 <@thos> andreasn, yeah exactly
22:26 < dobey> hbons: but again, it's about the style, not the theme
22:26 <@thos> hbons, can we put that in the roadmap?
22:26 <@benzea> but building two icon themes is twice the work ...
22:26 <@hbons> thos: spinners?
22:26 <@thos> hbons, well, just animation, instead of the silly icons thing
22:27 <@benzea> so, maybe we wrap up the icon discussion?
22:27 <@hbons> thos: sure
22:27 < dobey> benzea: which is why tango-icon-theme has not gotten a lot of attention for a while
22:27 < dobey> but tango isn't a gnome thing.
22:27 < dobey> so i don't know
22:28 <@benzea> the thing I noticed is that for a lot of the things we will need to get the right people in the boat to work together
22:28 <@hbons> i don't see the problem
22:28 < mizmo> fwiw the fedora wallpapers are unbranded and we license them openly
22:28 < mizmo> never really submitted them to gnome bc i didnt think they would want something associated with a particular distro
22:28 < mizmo> on the icons, well, dont assume everyone in fedora agrees its a good idea to make some new icon theme
22:28  * mizmo has distro pov
22:29 <@hbons> benzea: yeah, we won't get much done with gnome-art people alone
22:29 < dobey> mizmo: of course. but it's not what the people doing the work want, it's what marketing wants. :)
22:29 <@thos> mizmo, but art is a way distros distinguish themselves, I don't think that's likely to change?
22:29 < dobey> mizmo: and generally, marketing wants a certain number of icons branded, whether it's a complete theme or not
22:29 < vdepizzol> Are the highres icons created atm part o t-i-t or g-i-t?
22:29 <@benzea> hbons: yes, much of the work will be figuring out who to ask, and getting everyone excited about it so it will get done
22:30 < mizmo> dobey, actually there is no marketing involved in the echo team unfortunately
22:30 < dobey> vdepizzol: g-i-t doesn't have highres atm no
22:30 < mizmo> er echo theme
22:30 <@andreasn> vdepizzol: not as part of anything released yet, but work is underway
22:30 <@thos> mizmo, does rhel use echo?
22:30 < mizmo> thos, nope
22:31 < mizmo> thos, fedora does not either by default you know
22:31  * mizmo really prefers gnome-icon-theme
22:31 <@thos> mizmo, oh
22:31 <@thos> mizmo, i mean, the widget theme
22:31 <@thos> nodaka?
22:31 <@hbons> nodoka
22:31 < mizmo> thos, ah nodoka is used in fedora, but not in rhel
22:31 <@thos> mizmo, what's used in rhel?
22:31 < mizmo> it's entirely community-driven. there isn't any red hat marketing department controlling it at all, not even involved
22:31 < mizmo> thos, i am 95% sure clearlooks
22:32 <@benzea> interesting :-)
22:32 < dobey> anyway, the icons issue really doesn't matter
22:32 < dobey> we will always be getting new/better icons on some level
22:32 < mizmo> at least for fedora, at least for some of us :) we want to be as close to upstream as possible
22:33 < mizmo> just make it blue is the only thing we want to do
22:33 < dobey> heh
22:33 < dobey> i really don't like the blue folders in tango
22:33 <@andreasn> mizmo: :)
22:33 < dobey> the gnome ones are much nicer
22:33 <@andreasn> anyway, what about the font item on the roadmap?
22:33  * hbons and Cimi disagree:)
22:33 < mizmo> (sorry i dont mean to hijack anything i just saw some discussion about distros and thought i had some good perspective on that)
22:34 <@benzea> please, no bike shedding about folder icons ;-)
22:34 <@hbons> yeah, fonts
22:34 < dobey> hbons: i think the tango shape is ok, i just don't like the color :)
22:34 <@hbons> dobey: that's cool then:)
22:34 <@thos> mizmo, i think it's an important point to guauge how much effort to put in really
22:34 -!- halfline [~rstrode@lan-nat-pool-bos.redhat.com] has joined #gnome-art
22:34 <@andreasn> mizmo: I think it's good to know what distro people are up to
22:35 < dobey> hbons: i just want them to be a nice neutral yellow/brown color like standard manilla folders, so they don't stand out so much :)
22:35 <@andreasn> colors of folders are bikeshedding, lets move on
22:35 <@andreasn> :)
22:35 <@benzea> well, thos started talking about the font
22:35 < mizmo> color the bikeshed whatever color u like, we will make it blue in fedora :)
22:36 < garrett> I like the blue folders, including the blue mist ones
22:36 <@benzea> hehe
22:36 < dobey> andreasn: we just need to get more distro people involved. rh is really the only distro that has any involvement with upstream art
22:36 <@andreasn> and suse
22:36 < dobey> suse is halfway there
22:36 < dobey> the gnome half anyway
22:37 <@hbons> dobey: http://ramnet.se/~nisse/blog/images/foxtrot.png :)
22:37 <@thos> dobey, do we? or should we just accept that distros use art as a way to distinguish themselves (branding)
22:37 <@thos> dobey, and therefore unlikely to want it upstream any time soon
22:37 < dobey> thos: well, to accept it, everyone has to stop bitching about how ubuntu changes icon themes every release :)
22:37 <@benzea> distros are not much involved really, and I have the feeling that we haven't been too organized either ;-)
22:37 < garrett> heh, foxtrot
22:37 < garrett> yeah
22:38 <@andreasn> garrett: it's a bit funny :)
22:38 < dobey> thos: otherwise, we need to get the ubuntu people involved upstream (which the canonical people really would like to improve on i think)
22:38 <@thos> dobey, yeah, I can't imagine that happening any time soon
22:38 <@hbons> thos: maybe we need to push distros more to make variations instead of completely different themes
22:38 <@thos> dobey, ubuntu care little about anything but themselves
22:39 < dobey> i think the problem in ubuntu is that the majority of art decisions are made by the ubuntu community, and canonical doesn't really do much with it themselves
22:39 <@benzea> the thing is that distros will always do branding, but that does not mean that everyone can collaborate for a better desktop
22:39 < mizmo> suse probably more sadly :(
22:39 < mizmo> (sadly for me i want to be mroe involved)
22:39 <@hbons> uh, the main probablem with ubuntu art that nobody makes decisions
22:39 < dobey> hbons: that's what i just said.
22:40 <@hbons> ok, fonts
22:40 <@hbons> how does this look: http://bomahy.nl/hylke/wip/bluetwist.png
22:41 <@benzea> distros can theme, but they can't fix broken apps, that has to be done upstream in the end ...
22:41 <@hbons> i'm not suggesting this one, but it's less spaced
22:41 <@thos> hbons, why is less spaced better?
22:41 <@hbons> it takes less space?
22:41 < dobey> the kerning isn't so great with that font
22:41 <@hbons> thos: you are obviously not using ubuntu:)
22:42 -!- drom [~drom@moniq.kdyne.net] has joined #gnome-art
22:42 <@thos> hbons, of course not :-)
22:43 <@hbons> dejavu is so huge horizontally
22:43 <@thos> hbons, so I think the roadmap is good, we could probably do with some more specifics
22:43 <@hbons> actually i don't know what vanilla gnome uses by default
22:43 < dobey> i think it just uses the standard aliases
22:43 <@benzea> probably dejavu/bistreamer
22:43 <@benzea> ah, just "Sans"?
22:44 <@thos> hbons, gnome doesn't ship or depend on any fonts
22:44 < dobey> i don't think that if there are fontconfig issues on ubuntu, we should try to "work around" them by using a different font
22:44 < dobey> benzea: yeah
22:44 < garrett> hbons: I like the bluetwist stuff
22:44 <@hbons> benzea: "Sans" points to bitstream
22:44 < dobey> and i think by default in fontconfig it is bistream/dejavu in upstream fontconfig
22:44 < dobey> but different distros patch the aliasing differently i think
22:44 <@benzea> but that would mean picking a different font currently is hard
22:44 <@hbons> garrett: cool:)
22:45 < vdepizzol> Actually, i don´t think the dejavu font is too wide... I think it fits well with the desktop
22:45 <@benzea> GNOME would need to depend on it then
22:45 < garrett> it would be nice to make sure that there's a mapping between bitstream and dejavu
22:45 < garrett> in distros
22:45 < garrett> just as a fwiw aside
22:45 < dobey> dejavu is nice
22:45 <@benzea> dejavu == bistream + some more, right?
22:45 < dobey> garrett: i don't think it really matters, since dejavu obsoletes bitstream vera anyway
22:45 < dobey> benzea: yes
22:46 < lukeen> sorry but why not let the distros decide about fonts and font-smoothing?
22:46 < dobey> if we really cared about fonts, we could always just make some
22:46 < dobey> lukeen: they already do decide about it for the most part
22:46 <@benzea> create a good font? sounds like way too much work to me
22:46 < garrett> dobey: it matters when people have documents that references one and it's not on the system (but the other is)
22:47 < garrett> where documents are SVG files with fonts, OOo documents, etc.
22:47 -!- erlehmann [~nils@dslb-088-074-203-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #gnome-art
22:47 < garrett> web pages too
22:47 < erlehmann> hu
22:47 < erlehmann> hi
22:47 <@benzea> hello erlehmann
22:47 < dobey> web pages definitely have the least amount of fallout from it
22:47 < erlehmann> from what ?
22:48 < dobey> missing fonts that they specify
22:48 < garrett> yeah, you can specify multiple fallbacks there
22:48 <@benzea> erlehmann: talking about dejavu vs. bistream vera
22:48 < dobey> well, most web sites specify fonts that linux users don't have anyway
22:48 < dobey> "andale mono"
22:48 < erlehmann> oh no. i just specify sans / serif / mono
22:48 <@benzea> garrett: I guess the only way is to educate distributions about it ...
22:48 < garrett> I like the Droid fonts; wonder what license they are or will be officially going to be under
22:48 < erlehmann> no specific font
22:48 < garrett> benzea: yeah
22:49 <@andreasn> garrett: what do those guys look like?
22:49 <@hbons> so gnome doesn't ship fonts,... woulnd't it be a good idea to do ship them?
22:49 < garrett> benzea: I guess we can make sure that at least SUSE, Red Hat, and possibly Ubuntu distros are covered (;
22:49 < vdepizzol> erlehmann, but others specify like "comic sans"
22:49 < dobey> it would be nice to have ONE font, that was really nice, and had the full spectrum of characters in unicode that we need
22:49 < garrett> having good font mapping fallbacks would be nice
22:49 <@hbons> dobey: yeah
22:49 <@benzea> sure, just fix debian, ubuntu should pick it up within 6 months ;-)
22:50 < garrett> and probably try to make it consistent across distros
22:50 < erlehmann> vdepizzol: give me immunity from prosecution and i'll solve that issue.
22:50 < erlehmann> ;)
22:50 <@hbons> dobey: it makes sense, with gnome's accesibility and i18n reputation
22:50 -!- dudus [~dudus@189.108.36.206] has quit [Ex-Chat]
22:50 <@benzea> luckily pango is doing a pretty good job at selecting fonts ...
22:50 < dobey> hbons: it makes sense for open source in general, not just gnome
22:51 < dobey> benzea: except all the asian characters are ugly bitmap fonts for me :(
22:51 <@benzea> oh, dunno, I once installed like all ttf font packages
22:51 <@benzea> the spam usually looks good :-)
22:51 < dobey> yeah, i used to have nice asian fonts
22:51 <@andreasn> I think it would be cool to have a bunch of simple, one color symbols that we could use, like crosses for closing tabs and stuff (like pidgin) or other things. I think both Windows and OSX does that
22:52 < dobey> then i upgraded to hardy from gutsy
22:52 < dobey> or maybe it happend when i switched to gutsy from feisty
22:52 < garrett> andreasn: yeah, would be neat
22:52 < dobey> don't remember, but whatever
22:52 <@hbons> andreasn: yep
22:53 < dobey> anyway, later
22:53 < dobey> i gotta go
22:53 <@benzea> andreasn: good point, and those may need to change color :-/
22:53 <@benzea> not sure, some might need to follow the font color I mean
22:53 <@andreasn> benzea: yeah, and they would, as it's just a font
22:53 <@benzea> oh, right
22:54 <@benzea> yeah, if it was just the font, that would be cool
22:54 <@andreasn> could probably work for those window list right click dudes for close and maximize window
22:54 <@benzea> I wonder whether anyone would want to theme those ...
22:54 <@hbons> http://bomahy.nl/hylke/wip/roadmap.svg
22:54 -!- thomas_ [~thomas@78-86-229-148.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #gnome-art
22:54 <@hbons> anyone feel free to change things
22:54 <@andreasn> benzea: like a new font? well, I guess you could draw a new font
22:55 <@hbons> firefox doest render it well :/
22:55 <@benzea> yup, it makes it a lot harder though
22:55 <@benzea> hbons: not at all describes it better for me
22:55 -!- meastp_ is now known as meastp
22:56  * benzea sees a couple of grey white and black boxes
22:56 <@andreasn> benzea: well, if you would really want to replace a totally neutral set of pictographs in /usr/share/whatever I guess you could
22:56 <@andreasn> but I wouldn't worry about it until anyone actually request that
22:56 <@hbons> benzea: yep, me too, taht was a huge understatement:)
22:56 -!- erlehmann [~nils@dslb-088-074-203-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [erlehmann]
22:57 <@andreasn> anyway, I'll look into the simple symbols thing
22:58 <@hbons> great
22:59 < vdepizzol> Well, I need to go. See you soon!
22:59 <@benzea> oh, already an hour ...
23:00 <@benzea> andreasn: cool, we may need some small GTK changes in places ;-)
23:00 <@thos> benzea, what was the second item on the agenda?
23:00 <@andreasn> benzea: oh, I know some guys... :)
23:00 <@benzea> thos: oh, nothing really
23:01 -!- vdepizzol [~user@201.79.208.249] has left #Gnome-art []
23:01  * benzea had an "introduction/news" item as the first point
23:01 <@hbons> andreasn: how's Manju going?
23:02 <@andreasn> hbons: I've been away from work this week, so I don't know really. Too early for anything concrete I guess
23:02 -!- thomas [~thomas@78-86-229-148.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
23:02 <@andreasn> Tim did a interview for linux.com though
23:02 <@thos> about manju?
23:02 <@andreasn> yes
23:03 <@hbons> yeah, saw that
23:03 <@andreasn> http://www.linux.com/feature/149041
23:03 <@thos> seems a lot of people have lots of ideas about themeing for gtk3 etc
23:03 < meastp> I'm sorry if I'm disturbing the meeting, or if this doesn't belong here, but I just realised how useful it would be to have "collections" on the desktop. E.g, I have a couple of screenshots which contain good ideas in web design. As-is, they are just clobbed together. And the text is a mess. ss at http://www.bickeringleague.net/groups.jpg
23:04 <@benzea> thos: yup
23:04 <@thos> it would be good if we could consolidate all this somehow
23:04 <@benzea> I am a bit at a loss currently really
23:04 <@thos> meastp, isn't that what folders are for? :-)
23:05 <@benzea> there are many ideas, and I am not even sure how much backwardcompatibility needs or should be kept
23:05 <@thos> benzea, to be honest, for gtk3 I don't think we should even consider backward compatability
23:05 <@benzea> thos: for apps
23:05  * benzea doesn't consider any for themes ...
23:06 <@thos> benzea, how so for apps?
23:06 <@benzea> thos: the problem is that removing GtkStyle, would break *all* custom widgets
23:06 <@thos> benzea, you mean in terms of GtkStyle?
23:06 <@benzea> yup
23:06 <@thos> benzea, sealing GtkStyle is going to break all apps anyway...
23:06 < meastp> thos: I guess, but I folders on the desktop feels "messy"... I don't know, just an idea, really. Would be a bit lowfat-ish, I think...
23:07 <@benzea> and there are also apps that use gtk_rc_parse_string and/or gtk_widget_modify_*
23:07 < garrett> folders on the desktop _IS_ messy
23:07 < garrett> imho
23:07 <@benzea> thos: yes, but there will hopefully be scripts to fix most apps automatically
23:07 < garrett> folders and icons
23:07 < garrett> the concept is messy, I mean
23:07 <@thos> garrett, or just the desktop is messy like that? :-)
23:07 <@thos> hehe
23:07 < garrett> well, I fix it on my end
23:07 <@benzea> thos: sealing, and creating the need to rewrite some stuff, is still different
23:08 < garrett> I'm really good at organizing my files and folders
23:08 < meastp> ...and since they are talking about moving away from folders/hierarchy anyway (ref. vuntz latest blog post) ...
23:08 <@thos> benzea, I think we need to totally re-think GtkStyle
23:08 < garrett> 1) make a directory called "misc"  2) move everything there  3) repeat when overly messy
23:08 <@benzea> thos: yes, I agree
23:08 < garrett> misc/misc/misc/misc/misc/misc/foo.txt
23:08 < garrett> you'll eventually wind up with thing slike that
23:08 < garrett> it's fun!
23:08 <@benzea> but if we can keep some compat, that would be really good
23:09 <@hbons> garrett: i have misc, stuff, projects and todo:)
23:09 <@thos> garrett, psht, I only ever have max three levels :-)
23:09 < garrett> heh
23:09 < garrett> thos: you're not working hard enough then!
23:09 < garrett> (:
23:09 < meastp> garrett: happens to me periodically! :)
23:09 < garrett> hbons: yeah, I have misc, stuff, projects tooo..... not todo
23:09  * benzea always puts stuff into /tmp
23:09 <@benzea> at some point it is gone then ;-)
23:09 < garrett> I never do anything (jk)
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23:10 <@hbons> todo=shoulddo:)
23:10 < garrett> haha
23:10 < garrett> yeah
23:10 <@benzea> =neverdo?
23:10 < garrett> whenigetaroundtoitsomeday
23:10 <@benzea> guess the meeting is really over now :-)
23:11 -!- mizmo [~duffy@wirefire.akamai.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
23:11 <@benzea> anyone wants to do some minutes ...?
23:11  * benzea is not sure what kind of conclusions there were really
23:11 < meastp> If we are moving towards metadata-stuff instead of folders, we could make the desktop space more useful...
23:11 -!- Esquilo [~julio@189.21.145.130] has quit [Saindo]
23:12 <@thos> benzea, well, we discussed themes, icons, spash screens, fonts :-)
23:12 <@thos> benzea, replacing splash screen with some spinner animation or something
23:12 <@hbons> benzea: next time we will force people to work on things:P
23:13 <@benzea> ah, so next time we will have a long todo list for everyone? ;-)
23:13 <@benzea> great :-)
23:13 <@hbons> i will update the draft with things said here
23:13 <@benzea> any preferences for a date, btw?
23:13 <@hbons> and post it soonish
23:13 <@Cimi> can we discuss about otherthings? :)
23:13 <@benzea> and time, I guess it would be 19UTC then (daylight saving)
23:14 <@benzea> heh, should I have asked around for "misc" stuff earlier?
23:14 <@hbons> Cimi: let's here it
23:14 -!- dobey [~dobey@ip24-254-227-77.hr.hr.cox.net] has left #gnome-art []
23:15 <@thos> hbons, btw, what is your website item about?
23:15 <@hbons> hear
23:15 <@thos> hbons, we only just got a new design...
23:15 <@hbons> thos: which design?
23:15 <@thos> the latest one...
23:15 <@hbons> gnome.org?
23:15 <@Cimi> 1) start fixing applications that are broken with RGBA
23:15 <@thos> yes
23:15 <@Cimi> 2) add colorschemes
23:15 <@hbons> that's "new"?
23:16 <@Cimi> 3) theme the panel
23:16 <@thos> hbons, yes...
23:16 <@benzea> hehe
23:16 <@benzea> hrm, I think 2. we discussed already a bit earlier today
23:16 <@hbons> thos: i thought there were other mockups around
23:16 <@benzea> we need to get in touch with guisef about that
23:17 <@Cimi> great
23:17 <@hbons> maybe we should wait and see if we will still have a panel?
23:17 <@benzea> 1. still not sure, personally I don't care enough to go about and fix stuff really
23:17 <@thos> benzea, I think we need to store multiple colour schemes in the .desktop files
23:17 <@benzea> (and I have provided a nautilus/eel fix already)
23:17 <@Cimi> colorschemes will dramatically reduce the number of themes inside the appearance applet
23:17 <@benzea> thos: yes, we need color schemes
23:17 <@thos> benzea, and allow people to change them from the "Themes" page
23:17 <@benzea> thos: and I remember long discussions whether they should be in the metatheme, or maybe global, ...
23:18 <@Cimi> benzea, I will fix those applications, should not be difficult, I could assing that to me
23:18 <@thos> benzea, i'm pretty certain they should be part of the metatheme
23:18 <@benzea> yeah, I think so too
23:18 <@Cimi> benzea, but I need someone to patch gtk  for the xsetting/environment variable
23:18 <@thos> benzea, we really want to get rid of the individual themes concept
23:18 <@Cimi> someone more experienced then me
23:18 <@benzea> thos:  but one could imagine sharing color schemes
23:18 -!- mizmo [~duffy@130.57.22.201] has joined #gnome-art
23:18 <@thos> benzea, one could... but it's just a bunch of numbers
23:19 <@thos> benzea, just one line of text...
23:19 <@Cimi> sharing  a colorscheme is easied for us
23:19 <@Cimi> anyway
23:19 <@Cimi> usually colorschemes are designed with ONE theme in mind
23:19 <@benzea> sure
23:20 <@Cimi> for example: I can't use purple's crux theme on clearlooks
23:20 <@benzea> but if I create a cool color scheme for clearlooks, should I be able to share it easily with my friends?
23:20 <@Cimi> so sharing a colorscheme is not so necessary
23:20 <@thos> benzea, well, you can just tell them 9 numbers too :-)
23:20 <@benzea> so, that would mean having a save button, and an import or for new themes maybe
23:20 <@benzea> well *I* can :-)
23:20 <@benzea> ok, yes
23:20 <@benzea> you are right
23:20 <@Cimi> yeah, saving...
23:21 <@benzea> (I would just copy the gconf key ..)
23:21 <@benzea> well, it is not that important really
23:21 <@benzea> just having a way for one metatheme to provide multiple color schemes (with name I guess) would be a huge improvement
23:22 <@Cimi> exactly
23:22 <@Cimi> what about 1) and 3)?
23:23 <@thos> 3 is difficult because you cannot know the arrangement of the panel
23:23 <@benzea> well
23:23 <@benzea> we could set the name
23:24 <@benzea> so it would be gnome-panel-top-expanded
23:24 <@thos> we can draw a special background, mandriva already set a background
23:24 <@benzea> or gnome-panel-left
23:24 <@benzea> however, we cannot draw it properly
23:24 <@benzea> you can just set a background pixmap
23:25 <@thos> benzea, that is what mandriva do
23:25 <@benzea> but it doesn't work properly if the panel is larger than normal :-/
23:25 <@thos> benzea, perhaps we can get the panel to set a particular detail string?
23:25 <@benzea> thos: we first need to get the panel to draw *something*
23:25 <@thos> oh
23:25 <@Cimi> thos, 1+3 allows rounded panels
23:26 <@thos> benzea, how does the panel draw it's border?
23:26 <@benzea> for "rounded" panels you will probably want black corners, right?
23:26 <@benzea> thos: no idea ...
23:26 <@Cimi> someting like that http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/31128-2.jpg
23:26  * benzea takes a look at the code
23:26 <@Cimi> rounded panel
23:26 <@thos> benzea, I thought it called draw_box
23:27 <@Cimi> you need RGBA plus panel theming
23:27 <@benzea> thos: I think I have seen rendering errors
23:27 -!- eve [~emcglynn@wirefire.akamai.com] has quit [Leaving]
23:27 <@benzea> thos: and even then, that would just be the toplevel, and not the contained panel :-/
23:27 <@benzea> no box for the whole thing
23:27 <@thos> benzea, why not?
23:28 <@thos> surelly all the applets are transparent these days
23:28 <@benzea> not sure about that
23:28 <@benzea> with a bg pixmap they pass the pixmap data down to the applet to display correctly
23:28 <@benzea> unless something has changed, which I doubt
23:29 <@benzea> thos: found it
23:29 <@benzea> thos: hard coded line drawing
23:29 <@thos> benzea, ah well surely it should call draw_box then :-)
23:29 <@benzea> no theme or anything involved in the option called "use system theme"
23:30 <@benzea> thos: my idea was to use the normal transparency feature
23:30 <@benzea> and let the theme draw on top of the background image
23:30 <@Cimi> benzea, but why don't use RGBA plus panel theming?
23:30 <@Cimi> why we still use the pixmaps??
23:31 <@benzea> Cimi: because not all desktops are composited
23:31 <@benzea> heck, the default GNOME window manager is not composited
23:31 <@Cimi> by the time 3.0 will be out?
23:31 <@Cimi> 2 years?
23:31 <@Cimi> ok
23:31 <@Cimi> just add
23:31 <@benzea> well, panel is more short term for me currently
23:32 <@Cimi> if (!gdk_screen_is_composited) corners = CL_CORNER_NONE;
23:32 <@benzea> till, then who knows what will happen, maybe the panel in its current form dies for GNOME 3.0
23:32 <@Cimi> so easy
23:32 <@benzea> Cimi: if there is composition then you could just change it so that the theme draws on a transparent background
23:32 <@benzea> it would just work in both environments without a change
23:33 <@Cimi> I would not care so much about non-composited environments
23:33 <@benzea> Cimi: and I don't think anyone is currently up to porting the panel to proper ARGB support ...
23:33 <@Cimi> just write the correct fallbacks
23:33 <@benzea> Cimi: hey
23:34 <@benzea> Cimi: what I was proposing should be rather easy to implement
23:34 <@Cimi> benzea, in the next years, from both hardware and better drivers
23:34 <@benzea> Cimi: what you are propsing is porting gnome-panel to use ARGB visuals, I can only imagin that wrecking havoc
23:34 -!- ztefn [~stephen@a202152.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Leaving.]
23:34 <@Cimi> non-composited environments will be a very limited number
23:34 <@benzea> hrm, ok, I guess I saw this more short term
23:35 <@Cimi> benzea, *porting* into RGBA is not difficult
23:35 <@benzea> I agree, but I don't see anyone fixing the panel
23:35 < vuntz> fwiw, we're considering having only a top (or bottom) panel here at the hackfest
23:35 <@Cimi> just set a RGBA colormap if the screen is capable
23:35 <@benzea> Cimi: not sure about that, with the applets and stuff
23:35 <@benzea> Cimi: you need to do manual composition and stuff
23:35 <@Cimi> vuntz, see this: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=552953
23:35 < bugbot> Bug 552953: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-panel-maint@gnome.bugs, UNCONFIRMED, _NET_SYSTEM_TRAY_VISUAL and real icon transparency
23:35 <@Cimi> patch by owen taylor
23:36 < vuntz> Cimi: I know, but I'm at the hackfest this week
23:36 <@Cimi> vuntz, ok, but this doesn't depend on the hackfest :)
23:36 <@Cimi> it's just a patch that needs review
23:36 -!- TheCompany is now known as Company
23:36 < vuntz> Cimi: no code involved this week
23:37 <@benzea> Cimi: but it would not make the whole panel ARGB aware :-)
23:37 <@Cimi> benzea, this patch avoids craches
23:37 <@benzea> (not saying it is impossible)
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23:37 <@Cimi> then the theme could draw transparency
23:37 <@benzea> hrm
23:38 <@Cimi> set the opacity from a gconf entry
23:38 <@Cimi> in the engine, read the opacity of the registered gnome-panel widget
23:38 <@Cimi> and use that alpha value
23:38 <@benzea> Cimi: you may need the same hack for applets
23:38 <@Cimi> in your cairo_patter_add_color_stop_rgba
23:39 <@Cimi> benzea, for example the clock?
23:39 <@Cimi> it's it a plain button?
23:39 <@benzea> Cimi: it is, but you need to composite the painted clock, on the panel
23:39 <@benzea> (ok, bad example as it is in process these days I guess)
23:40 <@benzea> Cimi: the thing is just that you will run into a couple of issues; and yes, Owen did solve it for tray icons
23:42 <@Cimi> vuntz, so commit the patch :)
23:43 <@benzea> well, back to the orignal thing I said
23:43 <@benzea> drawing on top of the background image would hijack on the current transparency support, and should just work I think
23:46 -!- benzea changed the topic of #gnome-art to: GNOME Art and Themes
23:46 <@benzea> vuntz: except the PanelToplevel should already get the transparency stuff ;-)
23:46 <@hbons> later!:)
23:47 <@benzea> vuntz: remember, the handle discussion from fosdem 2006, iirc
23:47 -!- hbons [~hbons@82-169-68-10.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Leaving.]
23:48 <@benzea> ok, wtf? why are the handles wrong now *again*
23:48 <@benzea> this is getting silly
23:50  * benzea hopes it is just a panel/engine mismatch
23:51 -!- andreasn [~andreas@wirefire.akamai.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:51 <@benzea> ugh, debian still has gnome panel 2.20
23:53 <@benzea> ah, good
23:53 <@benzea> upgrade to 2.22.2 fixed it
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23:56 <@thos> benzea, debian has nautilus and panel 2.22 in experimental only
23:56 <@thos> benzea, due to "regressions"
23:57 <@thos> vuntz, so you are discussing having only one panel?
23:58 <@benzea> thos: yup, just installed that one
23:58 <@benzea> kinda weird I think
23:59 <@thos> benzea, if you had old network servers on your desktop, they no longer appear with gvfs
23:59 <@thos> benzea, and there is no migration path, so debian considers it a regression
23:59 <@thos> you need something to convert them to gtk bookmarks I guess
--- Log closed Sat Oct 11 00:00:36 2008