20:58 <@andreasn> I guess we can start soon then, even though some people missing
20:59 <@benzea> yeah, lets start
21:00 < klepas> yea
21:00 < klepas> be back in 5
21:00 <@benzea> hehe
21:01 <@andreasn> right, so the agenda is:
21:01 < Gyb> <- here
21:01 <@andreasn> # News/Latest developments 
21:01 <@andreasn> # Date and time of the next meeting 
21:01 <@andreasn> # End of the wallpaper contest 
21:01 <@andreasn> # Hackfest 
21:03 <@andreasn> # Whatever anyone wants to add
21:03 <@benzea> hm, who is leading the discussion?
21:03 <@andreasn> you? :)
21:03 <@benzea> darn ;-)
21:03 <@andreasn> I did last time so, B comes after A ;)
21:03 <@benzea> haha
21:04 <@andreasn> but seriously, I think you should, in case you don't mind
21:04 <@benzea> so, I thought that maybe we should have a short round where one could say if there has been something interesting going on
21:05 <@benzea> andreasn: sure, though I kind of fear that I am not good doing this :-)
21:05 <@andreasn> can't be worst than last time :)
21:05 < klepas> back :)
21:05 < Cube> benzea: fast asleep? you mean almost?
21:05 <@benzea> there is not much from me, except for the mozilla entry fix that many of you probably already know about
21:06 <@andreasn> benzea: not sure, what was that?
21:07 <@benzea> that was the hack between mozilla and the GTK+ themes and engines that enables us to have nice rounded corners on entries
21:07 < klepas> the round corners and drawing colours independent to the gtk theme?
21:07  * klepas nods
21:07 <@benzea> currently the corners are always filled with what the engine thinks is the background color of GTK+
21:08 <@benzea> (so you have a grey rectangle underneath each entry)
21:08 <@andreasn> me next then?
21:09 <@benzea> sure
21:09 <@andreasn> I've been on vacation since guadec to last week, so mostly trying to stay away from the computer :)
21:09 <@andreasn> but of late I
21:09 <@andreasn> I
21:09 <@benzea> nice :-)
21:10 <@andreasn> I've been mostly filling cosmetic UI bugs and stuff and started to try out jimmac's cool one-canvas-workflow and started converting Mist and gnome-icon-theme over
21:10 <@andreasn> to that
21:10 <@andreasn> that's all basically
21:11 <@benzea> I guess that if no one else has anything we could move on in a bit
21:12 < arc> I suck and I've been doing nothing
21:12 < klepas> i’ve been meaning to switch to the new workflow, natively on the mac
21:12 < arc> :)
21:12 < klepas> with little luck—Inkscape can’t be called by the ruby script
21:12 < klepas> as it’s installed as a .app and run under X11
21:13 < arc> ugh!
21:13 < jimmac> klepas: that should work though?
21:13 <@benzea> you can probably just add the right directory into the $PATH?
21:13 < klepas> need to figure something out or get a pc for ubuntu ;)
21:13 < jimmac> just making sure you have x11 running...
21:13 <@benzea> sorry, misread what klepas wrote
21:13 < klepas> jimmac: where would I point the $PATH to?
21:14 < klepas> sorry for the confusion—not running Inkscape *natively* with the native gtk+ build, just as a .app under X11
21:14 < jimmac>  /Applications/Inkscape.app/The/Path/To/The/Binary
21:14  * jimmac looks
21:15 -!- komputes_ [~komputes@67.204.59.212] has quit [Stay Hungry. Stay Foolish. Stay Humble.]
21:15 < klepas> Contents/MacOS/Inskcape ?
21:15 < jimmac> yea
21:17 <@benzea> ok, I guess we can move on to the next point then?
21:17  * klepas tests
21:18 <@benzea> that would be "Date and time of the next meeting"
21:19 <@andreasn> in one month maybe?
21:19 <@benzea> yeah, but should we fix it on the date, or the day of the week?
21:19 -!- _ke [~dgsiegel@e181111123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #gnome-art
21:20 <@benzea> robsta for example is not able to make it on weekends, Cimi said that in general saturday is bad or him
21:20 <@andreasn> I'm fine with a night during the week as well
21:21 <@benzea> wednesdays does not work well or me as soon as university starts again
21:21 <@benzea> maybe friday night?
21:22 < klepas> sure
21:22 <@benzea> should we say the same time that we started today (21:00 here, or 19:00 UTC)?
21:23 <@benzea> that would be September 5th I guess
21:23 <@andreasn> sounds good
21:23 < klepas> i think later would be better
21:24 < klepas> UTC 20:00 or 21:00
21:24 < Gyb> yes, that sounds good @ UTC 20/21
21:24 < klepas> ensures that those of us who live by set eating/sleeping times (*cough*) in Europe have eaten
21:24 <@benzea> hehe
21:24 <@benzea> true :-)
21:24 < klepas> (i know I don’t ;)
21:24 <@benzea> so 20:00 UTC?
21:25 <@benzea> haha
21:25 <@benzea> (that is 10:00 pm in most of europe)
21:25 < klepas> that works well i think
21:26 <@benzea> ok, good
21:26 < Gyb> ok.. now that we have new background images for 2.24.. what about GDM? Will the new GDM be released along with GNOME 2.24 or will it be postponed again?
21:27 <@andreasn> no idea really, vuntz|afk should know
21:27 < Cube> ehm, guys, so this will be moved right?
21:27 <@benzea> I'll send out a reminder on wednesday before
21:27 <@andreasn> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gdm-list/2008-August/msg00000.html
21:27 <@benzea> Cube?
21:28  * klepas will brb
21:29 < klepas> (continue)
21:29 <@benzea> woho, ok that is fixed then
21:29 <@benzea> (the date that is)
21:29 < klepas> (changing connections—don’t wait on me or anything)
21:29 <@benzea> my next point was the wallpaper contest
21:29 -!- klepas [~klepas@81.210.233.25] has quit [klepas]
21:29 <@andreasn> it's probably too late to get a custom background into GDM either way, but we could aim for the next cykle
21:30 <@andreasn> sorry, benzea, please move on
21:30 <@benzea> I put it there because I was wondering what still needs to be done
21:30 <@benzea> at GUADEC we said that we wanted to send out e-mails to everyone who took part, and maybe create a library with good images that can be used for GNOME artwork
21:31 <@benzea> so my question is: Has anyone has worked on sending out those e-mails?
21:32  * benzea guesses no
21:32 < Cube> benzea: yea?
21:33 <@andreasn> benzea: does anyone have the contact details to those who participated?
21:33 <@benzea> Cube: wondered what you meant with "< Cube> ehm, guys, so this will be moved right?"
21:33 < Cube> benzea: yea, will the meeting be moved?
21:33 <@benzea> andreasn: I guess Cimi has them, as it was his site
21:34 <@andreasn> so we need to check that with him then
21:34 <@andreasn> I can put it on my agenda to fix that
21:34 <@benzea> andreasn: nice, thanks a lot!
21:34 <@andreasn> I'll ask Cimi for the details
21:35 <@benzea> ok, I think that is cleared then
21:35 <@benzea> so, the Hackfest!
21:35 < Gyb> there were how many winners btw?
21:35 < Gyb> ok, sorry, too late ;-)
21:36 <@benzea> Gyb: we selected overall 16 wallpapers or GNOME I think
21:36 < Gyb> cool
21:36 <@benzea> that is fine :-)
21:36 <@benzea> three or four were old ones iirc
21:36 <@andreasn> did thos make a release?
21:37 <@benzea> there is a gnome-background 2.23.0 release
21:37 <@andreasn> url?
21:37 < Cube> what's actually with the wallpaper contest
21:38 < Cube> can anyone make one?
21:38 <@benzea> so yeah, they are in the latest gnome-background release
21:38 <@benzea> andreasn: do you want the url for the tarball?
21:38 <@andreasn> benzea: yes
21:38 < Cube> benzea: hmm
21:39 <@benzea> it is in svn :-) http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gnome-backgrounds/trunk
21:39 <@benzea> andreasn: * autogen.sh: don't look for translucent/ directory to find out
21:39 <@benzea> erk
21:39 <@benzea> andreasn: http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-backgrounds/2.23/gnome-backgrounds-2.23.0.tar.bz2
21:41 <@andreasn> thanks
21:41 <@benzea> ok, so I guess we can move on to the Hackest now? :-)
21:41 -!- klepas [~klepas@e180139103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #gnome-art
21:41 < Gyb> yeah
21:42 <@benzea> I think vuntz wants to have some more details about the plans and all :-)
21:42 <@andreasn> indeed
21:43 <@andreasn> we need a actual clear agenda of what we want to achieve with the meeting, who will come there, a budget, some potential sponsors etc.
21:44 < _ke> im one of the organizers, so if you have any questions, feel free to bug me
21:44 <@benzea> _ke: when exactly would it be?
21:44 < _ke> http://live.gnome.org/SpeckHackFest2008
21:44 < _ke> November 9-13, 2008 
21:44 <@benzea> thanks
21:45 < _ke> allthough we arent sure _what_ hackfest there will be ;) vuntz and the foundation then probably will choose that
21:45 <@andreasn> _ke: there are several proposals?
21:46 < _ke> andreasn, i know that there was a proposal to do a webkit hackfest
21:46 < _ke> andreasn, though i dont know if there can be two hackfests too
21:46 < _ke> we have enough place
21:47 < _ke> but i dont know about the foundation
21:47 < arc> I think is more about the budget
21:47 < arc> rather than how many hackfest they can host at once
21:47 < arc> if you know what I mean
21:47 <@andreasn> so we obviosly want to meet up in person, but what should the goal of the hackfest be?
21:47 < arc> when we discussed about having a 10 ppl hackfest vuntz didn't seemed too confident about it
21:48 -!- Ademan [~dan@h-67-101-146-248.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
21:48 < _ke> arc, exactly
21:48 < _ke> its like: if you want to have a hackfest about art, then every person who is working on gnome art, should be payed
21:48 < arc> andreasn: well, benzea I myself proposed a Theming API + CSS engine hackfest, then benzea thought it would be a good idea to have artist around, and then the GNOME Art hackfest idea came along
21:49 <@benzea> if we do that, then we have a pretty lose "art hackfest" with different tracks basically
21:50 <@andreasn> so for a theme hackfest there should also be some coders coming I guess
21:50 <@benzea> it might be a good place to meet Cimi :-)
21:50 < klepas> :)
21:51  * klepas thinks Jimmac should do a tutorial on the new workflow
21:51 < arc> _ke: I don't think every person should be payed
21:51 <@andreasn> some can also get there by cheer interest and pay for themselves
21:51 < arc> _ke: people willing to do specific tasks should request sponsorship if they can't afford it themselves or they're not sponsored by their employers
21:52 < _ke> arc, i dont think so too, it was vuntz|afk who told me this
21:52 -!- Cube [~Cube@p508568B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
21:52 < _ke> anyway: we want to offer accomodation packages, whereas some meals, the hotel and some social events are included
21:53 < arc> coold
21:53 < arc> cool
21:53 < arc> now, if you ask me, the Theming API really needs some work if we want to fix the situation on time for 3.0
21:53 <@benzea> _ke: that is Bolzano/Bozen? (just wondering about trains there)
21:53 < arc> so that's a concrete goal of the hackfest
21:54 <@benzea> I expect that there may be a GTK+ hackest earlier next year?
21:54 < arc> should we postpone that then?
21:54 <@andreasn> benzea: possibly, yes
21:54 <@benzea> arc: well, we might need a good reason why we want to do it earlier (or even meet twice) :-)
21:55 < _ke> benzea, yes
21:55 < _ke> benzea, btw: hey ;)
21:55 < arc> actually, it would be easier for me to get there if we do it next year
21:56 <@benzea> ok, not that expensive to get there by train
21:57 <@andreasn> I would be interested in gathering some people and get ideas on how we can make GNOME a great looking, slick desktop
21:57 <@andreasn> that could work for a hackfest as well, in case we want to do the theme stuff at a GTK+ hackfest
21:57 <@benzea> arc: so should we say that we work on the GTK+ 3.0 theming stuff over irc/mail and then?
21:57 -!- Ademan [~dan@h-67-101-146-248.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #gnome-art
21:57 < arc> benzea: yeah, let's do it that way
21:57 <@benzea> ie. it would not be a core topic then
21:58 <@benzea> if we have a meeting I expect that there will be some small scale discussions anyways
21:58 <@benzea> arc, andreasn: btw, Robert O'Callahan asked me whether it would make sense to send someone from mozilla to the hackest
21:59 <@andreasn> who is this Robert?
21:59 < arc> wich hackfest?
21:59 <@benzea> though I think that was about the theming api stuff
21:59 <@benzea> the one we are talking about
21:59 <@benzea> (so gtk themes)
22:01 <@andreasn> hm, yeah, probably
22:02 < arc> benzea: I would like to bring someone from the Java SWING guys as well
22:02 <@benzea> that could be interesting (potentially more interesting then mozilla)
22:02 < arc> actually, what about someone from Qt?
22:03 <@benzea> hm
22:03 <@benzea> could be interesting too
22:03 <@andreasn> some ISV's might be interesting as well, but maybe that's more interesting for a GTK+ meeting
22:03 <@benzea> and there has been this idea of a separate library ...
22:04 < arc> okay
22:04 < arc> benzea: we could try to catch some candidates from SWING and Qt willing to help us on this and schedule something for early next year?
22:05 <@benzea> so, right now it seems that if we have an art hackfest it would be about polishing the GNOME interface?
22:05 < Gyb> the last times when we were near to a GNOME release, people wanted to start an ART FORCE for GNOME, including a consistent set of GDM theme, GTK+ theme, background image, splash image, etc... couldn't a roadmap for this be discussed on the hackfest?
22:05 <@benzea> arc: sounds like a good idea, if you know anyone specific write down the name ;-)
22:05 < arc> Gyb: it would be better to discuss a roadmap earlier, and get things done during the hackfest though
22:06 <@benzea> Gyb: it would be working on implementing it ;-)
22:06 <@benzea> yeah
22:06 < Gyb> arc, even better, yes ;-)
22:06 <@andreasn> well, it's easier to discuss if we're in the same room
22:06 < arc> sometimes it is
22:06 < arc> sometimes it just slows down things
22:06 < arc> anyway
22:06 <@andreasn> so we agree what kind of look we want for GNOME in the first place
22:06 < arc> the Gtk+ hackfest went really well
22:06 < arc> we used mornings to discuss
22:07 < arc> and we worked as crazy after lunch till dinner
22:07 < arc> need to go, be right back after a while
22:08 <@andreasn> it might be interesting to bring a coder and a UI person along as well in that case
22:08 <@benzea> as soon as you touch GTK+ themes you will need a coder ;-)
22:08 <@andreasn> (or several, depeding on how big we want it to be)
22:09 <@andreasn> yeah, or else it will just be us doing one million mockups :)
22:09 <@benzea> which are then discarded by us ;-)
22:09 <@andreasn> yes
22:10 <@benzea> so, seriously that means the goal is working on the overall appearance of GNOME?
22:10 <@andreasn> so I guess we'll do some kind of visual refresh for GNOME 3.0
22:10 <@andreasn> big small, whatever
22:10 <@benzea> who might be comming to this hackfest?
22:12 <@andreasn> not sure really, I can think of a bunch of people
22:12 <@andreasn> but depending on the number of people we can bring
22:13 <@andreasn> icon person, theme person, visual design people
22:13 <@andreasn> coder, ui-person
22:13 < klepas> i’d like to come
22:14 < klepas> ICE tickets aren’t too pricey
22:15 < arc> if it's art only, I wouldn't be coming though
22:18 <@benzea> arc: yeah, I expected that :-)
22:18 < hbons> hi
22:18 <@andreasn> so, anyway, should we put together a proposal both for a "GNOME 3.0 visual refresh hackfest" and a "Theme API hackfest"?
22:19 <@benzea> hm, this is interesting
22:19 < hbons> andreasn: that would be a good idea
22:19 < hbons> because for gtk3, the hackers don't really know what to do with theming
22:19 <@benzea> because it does make a bit of a difference if we target GNOME 3.0 (with GTK+ 3.x) or GNOME 2.26
22:20 <@benzea> yeah, we have been discussing whether we should have GTK+ 3 theming hackfest now or not ...
22:20 <@andreasn> we could also leave the 3.0 part out :)
22:20 <@benzea> :-)
22:21 < hbons> we can make the theming evolve to 2.30, or change 2.30 completely
22:21  * hbons is for the last;)
22:23 <@benzea> hm, I don't see any clear decision :-)
22:23 < hbons> but i thought what we suggested at guadec, is that we should have more intereaction between the designers and hackers
22:23 <@benzea> but yeah, it would be nice to see a completely new theme in GNOME 2.30/3.0
22:25 < hbons> that way we could have our (designers) stuff ass to gtk
22:25 < hbons> add to gtk:)
22:27 <@andreasn> benzea: does it make a hackfest?
22:28 <@andreasn> we could also add stuff like "how do we want the panel to look", how should spacing and stuff work etc.
22:28 < hbons> andreasn: totally
22:28 < hbons> that's what i'm most interested in right now
22:28 <@andreasn> I need to finish off soon
22:29 <@benzea> that would mean developing a concept for the future theming?
22:29 <@benzea> I see two different possibilities for the hackfest really:
22:29 <@benzea>  1. Focus on working on the current stuff, improving the themes, icons, and applications
22:30 <@benzea>  2. look more ahead and think about GNOME 3.0, and stuff which might require larger changes
22:30 < hbons> #2 definitly
22:30 <@andreasn> 1. sounds easier I think
22:30 <@andreasn> but I guess we do that all the time anyway
22:31 < hbons> what's going on right now is that clearlooks gets some minor updates for every release and that's it
22:31 < hbons> (not that it's bad though)
22:32 < hbons> layout changes should be more on the agendo of gnome-art, i think
22:34 <@andreasn> what kind of layout changes?
22:34 <@benzea> andreasn: yes, we do that all the time, but we never sit down with coders and designers :-)
22:35 < hbons> andreasn: you know, spacing etc.
22:35 <@andreasn> yeah
22:35 < hbons> that is really the issue on what coders and designers need to get together on
22:37 <@andreasn> yeah
22:38  * benzea is not sure how to move on/come to a conclusion here
22:38 < hbons> :)
22:38 <@benzea> it sounds like what andreasn said "GNOME 3.0 visual refresh hackfest" and a "Theme API hackfest"?
22:39 < hbons> sounds good to me
22:40 <@andreasn> and we need to put together proposals, compare those and get to a decision on which one to do (or let the foundation do that)
22:40 <@benzea> well, the two above are overlapping a lot really
22:41 <@andreasn> hm, maybe
22:41 <@benzea> or should we also write a proposal to meet for polishing the desktop?
22:41 <@andreasn> for GNOME 2.26?
22:42 <@benzea> guess so, yeah
22:43 <@benzea> sounds a bit like "no" ;-)
22:43 <@andreasn> if we did that we could be 1. fairly few, 2. mostly sit down and fix stuff
22:44 <@andreasn> 3. track down the places were icons are missing etc.
22:44 <@benzea> yup
22:44 <@benzea> and teach the one canvas workflow for example
22:45 < hbons> 1 What do we want GNOME to look like UI wise 2. What do we want GNOME to look like theme wise
22:48 <@andreasn> so anyway, I need to hit bed now, but maybe if we meet again somethime during the week and continue the discussion
22:48 <@andreasn> as everyone except benzea, hbons and me is asleep
22:49 < hbons> sounds like a good idea
22:49 < Gyb> ;-)
22:49 <@benzea> Gyb: is not!
22:49 <@benzea> :-)
22:50 <@benzea> ok, we'll need to see who can/would want to come to the hackest
22:50 <@benzea> this of course depends on the topic
22:50 <@andreasn> yes
22:50 < hbons> benzea: is there a wiki page on the topic already?
22:50 <@benzea> hbons: there is http://live.gnome.org/SpeckHackFest2008 from the organizers (_ke is one of them)
22:51 < hbons> k, thanks
22:51 <@benzea> but nothing specific to ART stuff
22:52 <@andreasn> we can probably add one though
22:52 <@benzea> yeah
22:52 <@andreasn> with some ideas for different hackfests
22:52 <@benzea> should we meet at a specific time or just talk when people are around?
22:52 <@andreasn> I'm around most of the time I guess
22:53 <@andreasn> same for you guys I guess
22:53 < hbons> yeah
22:53 <@benzea> yeah
22:53 <@andreasn> so lets discuss this some more tomorrow
22:53 <@andreasn> is anyone keeping logs and doing a summary?
22:53 < hbons> andreasn: you know when kalle will be back btw?
22:53 <@benzea> tomorrow is not that good for me, but you can probably live without me :-)
22:53 <@andreasn> hbons: not sure, but he's on vacation right now, possibly next week
22:54 < hbons> yeah, he said he was on rhodos, just didn't know for how long
22:54 <@andreasn> me neither actually
22:55 <@benzea> ok, I guess the meeting is over for now :-)
22:55 <@andreasn> anyway, off to bed now!
22:55 < hbons> night andreas
22:55 <@andreasn> night!
22:55 -!- andreasn [~andreas@90-227-183-136-no128.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ex-Chat]
22:55 <@benzea> good night :-)