16:01:18 <API> #startmeeting
16:01:18 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Oct 10 16:01:18 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:18 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:28 <API> #topic 5-min of margin
16:06:35 <API> an now meeting time
16:06:42 <API> +5
16:07:05 <API> #topic "Boston" Summit
16:07:27 <API> #info API is configuring the laptop in order to do the pre-event homework as agreed
16:07:55 <API> #info talking with people led to conclude that ubuntu was not the best to try wayland-gnome, using f20 now
16:08:03 <joanie> yay
16:08:23 <API> #info building all the stack right now, so its a wip right now
16:08:24 <API> done
16:08:32 <API> I think that joanie have more to say about this
16:08:39 <joanie> #info Joanie did much of her pre-event homework.
16:08:47 <joanie> one sec
16:09:02 <joanie> #info Joanie is adding her findings to https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Hackfests/Montreal2013
16:09:20 <joanie> #info Joanie also updated the Application Status Page: https://wiki.gnome.org/Wayland/Applications
16:09:54 <joanie> #info Orca was sometimes crashing upon launch with the Wayland backend. Joanie has since fixed that with a workaround, and will have it totally fixed by today's end (hopefully).
16:10:07 <joanie> #info Accerciser reliably crashes upon launch with the Wayland backend.
16:10:26 <joanie> #info Joanie filed bug 709449 for that.
16:10:26 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709449 major, Normal, ---, accerciser-devel, UNCONFIRMED, Accerciser segfaults when run with the wayland backend
16:10:41 <joanie> #info But accerciser has some other problems and has not be worked on in quite some time.
16:10:59 <joanie> #action Joanie will ping Javi about his plans w.r.t. his module.
16:11:06 <joanie> I think that's it.
16:11:14 <joanie> mgorse: you have a wayland environment?
16:11:58 <mgorse> I'm not sure. I ran jhbuild, and the Xorg that it built doesn't want to start.
16:12:13 <joanie> ugh
16:12:20 <mgorse> at least not if I run startx
16:12:33 <mgorse> Maybe there are instructions somewhere that I wasn't following
16:12:36 <joanie> I followed the instructions on the Wayland trying it page
16:12:47 <mgorse> okay; I need to look for that
16:12:55 <joanie> there's a link on our team's page
16:12:58 <joanie> but I'll get it
16:13:08 <joanie> https://wiki.gnome.org/Wayland/TryingIt
16:13:14 <joanie> mgorse: that is what I followed
16:13:38 <joanie> mgorse: you might also want to read my comments on our team's page
16:13:46 <joanie> https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Hackfests/Montreal2013
16:13:49 <joanie> in particular
16:13:57 <joanie> As is already known, global keyboard shortcuts do not work when you are in an app using the Wayland backend. If using a mouse to launch or quit applications is problematic for you, consider adding a non-Wayland terminal application to your session's start-up. From within that terminal, you not only can launch apps via the terminal (i.e. to use the Wayland backend), but you can also use gnome-shell's global keyboard shortcuts.
16:14:44 <API> joanie, we briefly talked about that the other day
16:14:46 <joanie> oh another key thing.... the shortcuts to get back to virtual consoles are broken
16:14:52 <API> our conclusion was "talk with gcampax"
16:14:59 <joanie> API: I know
16:15:01 <API> should I send a email to him before the event?
16:15:12 <joanie> my point is, once mgorse gets a working environment
16:15:12 <API> I mean, instead of just waiting for a face-to-face talk
16:15:15 <joanie> it won't work for him
16:15:19 <joanie> if he doesn't do the terminal trick
16:15:27 <joanie> because you need the mouse otherwise
16:16:04 <API> k
16:17:03 <joanie> anyhoo, the terminal trick works for me because the touchpad support is poor enough that I cannot reliably click on stuff
16:17:09 <joanie> due to hand tremors
16:17:24 <joanie> but I think we're digressing (sorry API)
16:17:33 <API> no problem
16:17:36 <API> in any case
16:17:45 <API> there isn't a lot of people here ;)
16:17:57 <API> btw, I had an action item about sending the agenda
16:17:59 <joanie> are we otherwise set for Montreal?
16:18:03 <API> I will do that after the meeting
16:18:27 <API> the delay will not be really important, because afaik, most of the people going to the summit were at the meeting
16:18:33 <API> last week meeting I mean
16:18:38 * joanie nods
16:18:46 <API> apart for that, no, I don't have anything else to say about the summit
16:19:00 <joanie> me neither
16:19:02 <API> so unless someone wants to add something, I will move to next point
16:19:50 <API> #topic GNOME 3.12 Planning
16:20:07 <API> well, I think that there isn't any big changes here, compared to last week
16:20:20 <API> probably just add the accerciser thing that joanie mentioned before
16:20:29 <mgorse> API: Thanks for your reply on g-a-devel. I need to re-read it and reply to it.
16:20:53 <joanie> yeah, that's a big 3.12er potentially
16:20:54 <joanie> :)
16:20:55 <API> mgorse, no problem,
16:21:05 <joanie> I have another one potentially
16:21:32 <API> sorry if you replied my reply, but I didn't have a proper environemnet to read emails
16:21:33 * API looking
16:21:35 <joanie> API from a while back you had an action item w.r.t. pinging the mousetweaks devs re wayland
16:21:47 <API> hmm, yeah
16:21:56 <API> but I also understood that magdalen was planning to do the same
16:21:59 <joanie> and if they need to do something and it isn't done
16:22:07 <joanie> then we'll have a regression
16:22:24 <joanie> Magdalen is a full-time student
16:22:28 <joanie> and novice developer
16:22:47 <joanie> I think that if we care about Mousetweaks we need to take the lead on this
16:24:51 <API> well, but she sent that email
16:25:03 <joanie> what email
16:25:03 <joanie> ?
16:25:12 <API> I didn't want to flood Francesco inbox about the same from different people
16:25:14 <joanie> anyhoo, if you would prefer, I can remove your action item
16:25:35 <API> magpie sent a forward to the list
16:25:37 <API> Subject:
16:25:37 <API> Re: Mousetweaks & A11y meeting regrets
16:25:44 <joanie> oh yeah
16:25:44 <API> unfourtunately she mixed topics
16:26:10 <joanie> ok, I'll remove your action item then
16:26:13 <joanie> sorry for the noise
16:27:44 <API> np
16:28:00 <API> btw, I also have as pending the ai of gtk+2 plans
16:28:06 <API> will do that asap
16:28:12 <API> anything else on this topic?
16:28:28 <joanie> not from me
16:29:27 <API> #topic W3C updates
16:29:32 <API> clown is not here
16:29:34 <API> joanie, ?
16:29:39 <joanie> nothing from me
16:30:50 <API> ok
16:30:55 <API> #topic Marketing
16:31:01 <API> jjmarin is not here
16:31:13 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
16:31:26 <API> so anyone present want to mention something that was not scheduled?
16:31:31 <API> this time it doesn't need to be short
16:31:36 <joanie> heh
16:31:40 <API> because the meeting was going at full speed
16:31:50 <joanie> wnck in pygobject is apparently quite broken
16:31:57 <joanie> today's discovery
16:32:25 <API> fwiw, last time I tried to use accerciser
16:32:28 <joanie> I think accerciser uses it too
16:32:28 <API> failed due wnck
16:32:47 <API> so I0'm wondering if accerciser breakage is related with wnck
16:32:55 <joanie> my guess is yes
16:33:21 <API> joanie, do you know if wnck is used by a lot of projects?
16:33:27 <joanie> dunno
16:33:32 <API> or pygobject bindings at least
16:33:35 <joanie> and the question is: a lot of python projects
16:33:37 <joanie> exactly
16:33:48 <joanie> my immediate concern is Orca
16:34:09 <joanie> which can (and apparently has been) using Atspi's component as a fallback
16:34:15 <joanie> for what it tried to accomplish via wnck
16:34:23 <joanie> so I'm removing the wnck code from orca now
16:34:33 <joanie> if Orca keeps on keepin' on, then my problem is solved
16:34:36 <joanie> then I'll look at accerciser
16:34:47 <joanie> because the amount of breakage is getting severe
16:34:58 <joanie> anyhoo.....
16:35:07 <joanie> that's all my misc time stuff I think
16:35:08 <joanie> :)
16:35:18 <API> joanie, could you summarize it with pretty #info?
16:35:23 <joanie> bah
16:35:27 * joanie grumbles
16:35:29 <joanie> :P
16:35:30 <joanie> (sure)
16:36:12 <joanie> #info Joanie discovered that with pygobject, Wnck seems a bit broken. e.g. Wnck.Screen.get_default() in Wayland causes segfaults.
16:36:41 <joanie> #info And in the non-wayland world wnck_screen_get_windows_stacked() returns an empty list
16:36:57 <joanie> #info Joanie discovered that Orca doesn't actually need the wnck code in question.
16:37:16 <joanie> #info Joanie suspects this might be why Accerciser is segfaulting on launch with the wayland backend.
16:37:39 <joanie> #action Joanie will investigate this for Accerciser and (hopefully) provide a patch so we can use Accerciser to test.
16:37:45 <joanie> how's that fearless one?
16:38:09 <API> good, thanks
16:38:17 <API> so, anything else for misc time?
16:38:39 <joanie> msanchez: can talk about webkitgtk atktext wtf perhaps? :)
16:39:49 <joanie> or not
16:41:39 <joanie> meeting over then?
16:41:52 * joanie wants to resume her wnckectomy
16:41:53 <joanie> :)
16:42:34 <joanie> or is that wnckotomy
16:42:40 <joanie> I want to remove wnck anyway
16:43:41 <msanchez> not sure what to mention
16:43:48 <joanie> up to you :)
16:43:59 <msanchez> well, tehre's much stuff I believe
16:44:00 <joanie> sounds like a refactor might be coming soon?
16:44:01 <msanchez> but in a nutshell
16:44:22 <msanchez> I'm taking a deep look, step by step, to the implementation of atk_text_get_text in WebKitGTK+
16:44:32 <msanchez> it looks to me like there is much room for improvement in there
16:44:47 <msanchez> I doubt it will be a "destroy everything and start over" thing
16:45:00 * joanie hides the matches and gas can
16:45:17 <API> msanchez, fwiw, you also mentioned yesterday something about tests in webkit2
16:45:30 <msanchez> I'm more pro doing iterative steps, and at the moment that means I've analyzed the file and identified some API methods that need checking... being this one the most important one
16:45:36 <msanchez> but I don't have any results yet
16:45:44 <msanchez> API: ah, true
16:45:51 <API> as I was busy I quickly just answered that could be a task for next webkitgtk ahckfest
16:45:53 <API> *hackfest
16:46:05 <msanchez> my other idea to work on a11y now is making sure we move away from testatk.c at some point, which only runs in WK1
16:46:35 <msanchez> we need to at least migrate those tests to WebKit2 infrastructure, which I believe will mean to test by means of atspi, not atk
16:46:49 <msanchez> besides some other issues that we will probably find along the way
16:46:54 <msanchez> but again, it's too early
16:47:12 <API> msanchez, so right now
16:47:14 <API> on webkit2
16:47:20 <API> the only atk related tests
16:47:22 <msanchez> This week I landed the last patch I had pending on review and I'm now in the phase of fixing the AtkText mess
16:47:28 <API> are related with checking that the plug is working?
16:47:30 <msanchez> no ATK tests in WebKit2
16:47:48 <msanchez> only one AtSpi test to check that the hierarchies are connected
16:47:50 <msanchez> that's right
16:47:53 <msanchez> + the layout tests
16:48:12 <msanchez> and the fact that the bots still run WebKit1 unit tests (which check other stuff from ATK, not checked by the layout tests)
16:48:37 <API> ok, so I will try to summarize this:
16:48:55 <API> #info as an early idea of what we can do for webkitgtk hackfest, some  ideas are appearing
16:49:06 <API> #info a) Review atk_text_get_text implementation
16:49:30 <API> #info b) Look about moving atk tests to Webkit2 tests, as right now it only have one at-spi test related with the hierarchy
16:49:38 <API> msanchez, is that good enough for a summary?
16:49:38 <msanchez> I can propose a third one
16:50:06 <API> shot
16:50:24 <msanchez> what about going through the mappings in http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_state-property and check which ones are correct (so can be safely implemented now already) and which ones are not?
16:50:30 <msanchez> shoot
16:51:05 <API> joanie, what do you think about the third one?
16:51:21 <joanie> sure
16:51:29 <joanie> I hope to have reviewed all the mappings by then
16:51:37 <joanie> and proposed API changes (should they be needed)
16:51:44 <msanchez> olrai
16:51:52 <joanie> olrai?
16:52:01 <msanchez> all right
16:52:03 <joanie> ah
16:52:04 <API> #info msanchez also propose review  http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_state-property in order to check correctness and which needs new atk API
16:52:12 <API> #info disclaimer: all that are early ideas
16:52:17 <API> and having said so
16:52:23 <API> I think that we can finish the meeting
16:52:52 <API> #endmeeting