14:35:49 <API>	so lets start the meeting with the real people
14:36:00 <clown>	"real"?
14:36:07 <API>	1. Status of BGO#638377 and BGO#638378
14:36:40 <fer>	so, this is needed if we want proper delete text report on java and firefox
14:36:45 <API>	fer mgorse I guess that this is your point
14:37:00 *	API it is a pity not having li here
14:37:12 <mgorse>	Yeah, I just wanted to know the status of those bugs
14:37:36 <mgorse>	It doesn't look like the atk changes are in, and I've been waiting on them to do anything with the AT-SPI changes
14:37:43 <fer>	another question is... as this is somehow an API addtion, we would need to request permission from release team
14:38:13 <fer>	ok, so we need to get Li decission on this
14:38:53 <API>	fer, hmm, because you want those changes to be there before GNOME 3.0?
14:39:11 <fer>	well, if not, firefox 4 is not going to report the right deleted text
14:39:32 <fer>	If I could, I'd put those changes on GNOME 3 and GNOME 2.32.x :)
14:39:54 <joanie>	I would LOVE to see a new 2.32.x release for that
14:40:02 <joanie>	Let's ask Li if we can
14:40:09 <fer>	that would involve Atk and at-spi1 releases
14:40:17 <fer>	Is li maintaining at-spi1?
14:40:23 <joanie>	because the reality is a lot of users are not going to jump to 3.0
14:40:27 <joanie>	I believe he is
14:40:41 <mgorse>	He has been maintaining it in the past, anyway
14:40:46 <joanie>	but if their distros can be convinced to update at-spi and atk
14:40:53 <joanie>	then those users will benefit from the fix
14:41:07 *	jhernandez (~jhernande@83.175.203.146) has joined #a11y-meeting
14:41:08 <API>	well, taking into account that you are still solving the missing knots here
14:41:12 <API>	I guess that the best is
14:41:12 <jhernandez>	hi
14:41:18 <API>	a) finish the work
14:41:24 <API>	b) after then, check if it is possible
14:41:33 <API>	to include that on gnome 3.0 2.32x
14:41:44 <joanie>	who does a) fer?
14:41:50 <fer>	yeah, I can do it
14:41:56 <joanie>	sweet thanks
14:42:02 <fer>	would would be nice to have reviews and so :)
14:42:18 <joanie>	we'll ping Li on that. And I can test.
14:42:24 <mgorse>	I'll look at the AT-SPI changes and review them, in any case; probably no harm in doing that
14:42:31 <fer>	superb!
14:42:34 <joanie>	there you go
14:42:50 <API>	ok, sooo
14:42:59 <API>	anything else about this first item on the agenda?
14:43:13 <fer>	hum, patch for java bridge?
14:43:27 <fer>	it would be nice to have clients taking adventage of that
14:43:39 <fer>	we have the firefox patch, but as far as I know, there is no java bridge patch
14:44:00 <joanie>	we could ping Ke.
14:44:20 <joanie>	My understanding is that he left Oracle but is still around and hacking and maintaining the java atk wrapper
14:44:38 <API>	and also ask him again for a update
14:44:41 <API>	of JAW
14:44:48 *	joanie nods
14:44:49 *	API checking gnome 3.0 page
14:44:54 <API>	Status: 24-Mar-2010
14:44:56 <API>	hmm
14:44:59 <joanie>	he's not been doing releases come to think of it.
14:45:04 <API>	last update done on the last CSUN more or less
14:45:15 <joanie>	well, that's true for other areas I believe
14:45:32 *	joanie takes an action to ping Ke for a life update
14:45:42 <joanie>	unless you want to do it API
14:46:07 <API>	no its fine if you poke Ke
14:46:09 <API>	after that
14:46:24 *	API checking again
14:46:32 <API>	Status: 24-Mar-2010 - needs testing with Orca and other assistive technologies as well as a mix of Java-based applications. 
14:46:41 <API>	you can ask him if we did that orca testing
14:47:06 <API>	so, moving on? any other comment on this item?
14:47:09 <joanie>	I had been using the JAW
14:47:11 <joanie>	yes
14:47:23 <joanie>	as I was saying, I had been using the JAW with Orca
14:47:36 <joanie>	so I can update that status
14:47:42 <joanie>	if that's the only missing update
14:48:15 <API>	ah ok, good
14:48:17 <joanie>	(done)
14:48:54 <API>	ok, so next poing
14:48:55 <API>	point
14:49:03 <API>	2. GNOME 3 Live image preview proposal 
14:49:09 <API>	jhernandez, ?
14:49:12 <jhernandez>	yes
14:49:13 <API>	I guess that this is your point
14:49:25 <jhernandez>	API, you're right
14:49:30 <jhernandez>	;)
14:50:35 <jhernandez>	first, i'll clarify that i wanted a comfortable testing environment, and i started to follow fcrozat's live images
14:51:00 <jhernandez>	but, his image doesn't include all a11y work
14:51:21 <jhernandez>	so, i'll decide to build my own live image for testing purposes
14:51:51 <jhernandez>	i talked it with joanie and she thought it was a good  idea
14:51:59 *	joanie nods
14:52:14 <joanie>	it simplifies life considerably for those of us wanting to test the very latest packages
14:52:15 <jhernandez>	so, we made a list for our needs
14:52:29 <jhernandez>	for this testing purposes
14:52:51 <jhernandez>	shall i continue with the list?
14:52:58 <joanie>	I think so
14:53:01 <jhernandez>	ok
14:53:06 <joanie>	because they are just our needs
14:53:11 <joanie>	not the full team's.
14:53:13 <clown>	jhernandez:  is the list on a web page somewhere?
14:53:16 <joanie>	full team should chime in
14:53:45 <jhernandez>	no, this list was made by mail with joanie
14:53:57 <joanie>	jhernandez: you and I can start a page
14:54:04 <joanie>	but the list is short
14:54:08 <jhernandez>	but, i'll move it to a wiki if you want
14:54:09 <joanie>	at the moment
14:54:28 <jhernandez>	so, the list, at this moment is:
14:54:52 <jhernandez>	1.- AT-SPI2 and friends
14:55:06 <jhernandez>	2.- Orca from master
14:55:19 <jhernandez>	3.- Accerciser
14:55:43 <jhernandez>	4.- Latest WebKitGtk
14:55:52 <jhernandez>	5.- gtk-demo for gtk3
14:56:03 <jhernandez>	6.- speechdispatcher 0.7 or greater
14:56:25 <jhernandez>	7.- Accessible installer if possible (yast sucks)
14:56:39 <jhernandez>	8.- Caribou
14:56:58 <jhernandez>	some of these list items are done
14:57:27 <jhernandez>	but i'll need to try my latest build
14:57:28 <bnitz1>	jhernandez:That's great.  I think this should go on a wiki.
14:57:41 <bnitz1>	what distro do you build it on?  (Does it matter?)
14:57:43 <mgorse>	jhernandez: Are you pulling from git, or building from packages?
14:58:00 <fer>	jhernandez: firefox 4 :)
14:58:08 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, i'm building an openSuse 11.3, as fcrozat's
14:58:31 <API>	jhernandez, in order to test it we could also use a USB image?
14:58:34 <jhernandez>	mgorse, next step is that, building my own packages from masters
14:58:56 <jhernandez>	fer, when i created the wiki, i'll added to the list
14:58:59 <bnitz1>	jhernandez:  Do you use jhbuild?  If so have you defined a a11y testing specific moduleset?
14:59:04 <fer>	thanks jhernandez!
14:59:10 <jhernandez>	API, yes, it could be a USB image, yes
14:59:42 *	bnitz1 has tried jhbuilding an accessible test environment on nearly every other development distro except OpenSuse 11.3
14:59:57 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, i'm using the same workflow as fcrozat's, this is: opensuse builder service (for building packages) and susestudio (for building the distro)
15:00:17 <clown>	"a" USB image?  isn't it an image for each distro?
15:00:44 <clown>	or is that overkill?
15:00:46 <jhernandez>	clown, didn't understand
15:01:09 <clown>	jhernandez:  when I hear "image" I think live DVD image.
15:01:12 <joanie>	clown: fred crozat's using susestudio
15:01:18 <joanie>	http://gnome3.org/tryit.html
15:01:20 <jhernandez>	yes
15:01:36 <API>	clown, not required a DVD thing, this is the reason I asked for the USB
15:01:38 <clown>	joanie, thanks.
15:01:43 <API>	in that way we could test the distro
15:01:45 <jhernandez>	my distro is the same as crozat's but with our needs
15:01:51 <API>	without removing our environment
15:02:02 <clown>	API, understood.  I'm using the word DVD loosely as in DVD *image*
15:02:15 <joanie>	because crozat's isn't the latest a11y stuff
15:02:19 <clown>	so, yes, you could build the "DVD" on a USB stick.
15:02:46 <jhernandez>	API, you can test it by running in a virtual machine or by starting you machine with an USB live
15:03:02 <joanie>	but the point clown (I think) is: NO, there will NOT be an image per distro.
15:03:09 <joanie>	beacuse we're piggy backing off of fred's work
15:03:14 <joanie>	and fred is using opensuse
15:03:16 <API>	well, a virtual machine can be slow.
15:03:19 <joanie>	via susestudio
15:03:36 <clown>	joanie:  just to clarify then:  there is one distro tested?  namely, susestudio?
15:03:50 <joanie>	I didn't say that
15:04:03 <joanie>	fedora and everyone else shipping gnome 3 (okay, maybe that's just fedora)
15:04:04 <jhernandez>	clown, susestudio is a service for building your own distros
15:04:05 <joanie>	are testing
15:04:19 <joanie>	http://susestudio.com/
15:04:32 <joanie>	hmm maybe not
15:04:34 *	clown slowly, clown understands.
15:04:41 <jhernandez>	ok
15:04:45 <jhernandez>	more questions?
15:04:54 <jhernandez>	opinions?
15:04:55 <jhernandez>	ideas?
15:04:57 <joanie>	clown: no worries
15:05:02 <joanie>	but do you understand?
15:05:11 <mgorse>	jhernandez: Thanks for doing this. Let everyone know when you have something ready to test.
15:05:13 <joanie>	i.e. we're just going the path of least resistence
15:05:36 <API>	well, lets try to summary and get actions
15:05:39 <API>	summary:
15:05:48 <jhernandez>	mgorse, of course, i'm hoping in have a release this week
15:05:48 <clown>	joanie:  not completely.  I just read "To run the live image, reboot your computer with the USB stick attached" on the tryit site.  Well, some distro has to boot at that point, no?
15:05:55 <jhernandez>	API, ok
15:05:59 <API>	1) jhernandez is working on a gnome 3.0 environment
15:06:00 <API>	actions:
15:06:12 <API>	1) he will create a wiki page with the packages required
15:06:22 <API>	2) once it is created he will provide it in a common place
15:06:30 <API>	3) people should try to book some time to test it
15:06:38 <API>	Im missing something?
15:06:48 <jhernandez>	for me it's ok
15:07:38 <API>	ok, so lets conclude that this point is finished
15:07:42 *	API checking agenda
15:07:45 <jhernandez>	ok
15:07:49 <API>	3. GNOME 3 Updates 
15:07:56 <API>	well, from my side
15:08:03 <API>	or in general
15:08:09 <API>	recently owen taylor send a mail
15:08:11 <API>	titled
15:08:26 <API>	"Possible UI freeze break: acccessibility menu in panel"
15:08:42 <API>	right now gnome-shell has a accessibility menu  on panel
15:08:51 <API>	but not all the things were working
15:08:56 <API>	or "integrated" with the shell
15:09:16 <API>	right now, it seems that the final conclusion is that they will maintain most of the things
15:09:19 <API>	on the panel
15:09:27 <API>	and will try to fix them
15:09:31 <API>	but removing
15:09:42 <API>	the things that depends on the "accessibility toolkit"
15:09:44 <fer>	(matthias is my new hero, btw)
15:09:44 <API>	that is
15:09:45 <API>	at-spi2
15:09:55 <joanie>	fer: mine too!
15:09:56 <API>	as it requires a logout and so on
15:09:57 <joanie>	omg
15:09:58 <API>	that means
15:09:58 *	clown can verify that not many of those a11y toggles do anything.
15:10:09 <API>	remove "screen reader" and on screen keyboard
15:10:16 *	clown notes that "Zoom on/off" does work.
15:10:22 <API>	clown, no? 
15:10:27 <API>	well it was working the last time
15:10:30 <API>	anyway
15:10:37 <API>	imho it is ok if they remove that
15:10:42 <clown>	API, what is "it"?
15:10:45 <API>	as they should be available via the univeersal settings
15:10:53 <API>	clown, the zoon on/off
15:11:03 <API>	although of course, you couldn't configure it from that panel
15:11:07 <clown>	API, I was noting that the zoom was one that *did* work.
15:11:15 <API>	ah
15:11:16 <API>	ups
15:11:18 <API>	sorry
15:11:19 *	joanie mutters 'show off' to clown
15:11:20 <joanie>	;-)
15:11:28 <API>	and specifically
15:11:31 <API>	about gnome-shell
15:11:31 <clown>	Hee, hee.
15:11:46 <joanie>	I don't object to the decision because Orca users don't use those dialogs anyway
15:11:47 <API>	I committed this week a change on orca
15:11:49 <clown>	but, most of those toggles doe nothing (based on about a week ago, building nightly).
15:11:52 <API>	reviewed by joanie
15:11:58 <API>	and also provided some patches on gnome-shell
15:12:04 <API>	in order to have meaningful names
15:12:09 <joanie>	thanks for doing that API
15:12:16 <API>	on the alt+ta, ctr+alt+tab menus
15:12:20 <API>	and the application search menu
15:12:23 <API>	so
15:12:28 <API>	any other gnome 3.0 update?
15:12:33 <API>	any question about my rant?
15:12:58 <mgorse>	People are working on release notes
15:13:10 <mgorse>	ie, http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointNinetyone/ReleaseNotes
15:13:27 <API>	uh yes, good point...
15:13:28 <mgorse>	so we may want to edit that--I need to look at it and probably edit, too
15:13:47 <API>	and btw, this reminds me the q4
15:13:49 <API>	https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q4
15:13:55 <joanie>	ugh
15:13:58 <joanie>	yeah
15:14:05 <API>	(yes, sorry, I know that Im one that didn't do his homework...)
15:14:56 <joanie>	API I didn't do mine
15:15:04 <joanie>	and most people haven't done theirs
15:15:22 *	clown wonders when Q1/2011 reports are due.
15:15:25 <fer>	dudes, I have to leave, so just for the record for the testing section, I've been working on setting up an automated env for running orca testsuite against a well defined env (currently jhbuild gnome3) + external binaries (for example ff4). The idea is to have a web page showing results, and maybe triggering test runs agains a selected binary
15:15:26 <joanie>	the one good thing is that the board and other teams (beyond our team) hasn't done theirs either
15:15:44 <fer>	(sorry about the non-on-topic spam)
15:15:48 <joanie>	fer I have a page already
15:15:50 <joanie>	two seconds
15:15:51 <bnitz1>	awesome.
15:16:21 <joanie>	okay 10 seconds
15:16:23 <fer>	hehe
15:16:25 <fer>	no problem
15:16:25 <joanie>	live.gnome.org is being slow
15:16:51 <joanie>	https://live.gnome.org/Orca/RegressionTestingData
15:17:02 <joanie>	didn't come soon as hoped
15:17:11 <joanie>	but that is where your results and data belong fer
15:17:17 *	bnitz1 needs to contact fer and jhernandez 
15:17:50 <fer>	joanie: great!
15:17:58 <fer>	I'll keep you updated!
15:18:03 <joanie>	super awesome
15:18:06 <joanie>	thanks for doing it!
15:18:07 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, ACK
15:18:12 <API>	ok, so as you started the testing thing
15:18:14 <bnitz1>	Thanks!
15:18:16 <API>	lets move to that point
15:18:23 <API>	5. Testing 
15:18:27 <API>	so, ugys
15:18:28 <API>	ups
15:18:30 <API>	guys, go on
15:19:02 *	bnitz1 looks to fill the hole in my test strategy, "what distro/image" becomes our rolling test environment?
15:19:23 <joanie>	bnitz1: uh... opensuse?
15:19:26 <joanie>	:-)
15:19:43 <jhernandez>	:]
15:19:43 <bnitz1>	Seems reasonable.
15:19:47 <joanie>	because jhernandez is spinning a test distro
15:19:58 <joanie>	which will be totally usable for you
15:20:02 <joanie>	and the rest of the team
15:20:08 <joanie>	right jhernandez?
15:20:14 <jhernandez>	you're right!
15:20:18 <jhernandez>	;)
15:20:23 <joanie>	bnitz1: make sense?
15:20:27 <joanie>	(hole filled?)
15:20:37 <bnitz1>	I think so.
15:21:08 <bnitz1>	 /me doesn't understand how suse build studio relates to jhbuild.  Would all work to get a test environment on SuSE studio have to be repeated for distros which use jhbuild?
15:21:35 <joanie>	bnitz1: imagine a distro which (largely) has all the stuff you have from jhbuild
15:21:37 <joanie>	BUT
15:21:40 <joanie>	is "just a distro"
15:21:52 <joanie>	so you don't need to jhbuild
15:22:01 <joanie>	because it has the latest a11y bits
15:22:06 <joanie>	and the latest webkitgtk
15:22:15 <joanie>	and a pretty gosh-darned recent gtk3
15:22:20 <joanie>	and gtk-demo
15:22:21 <joanie>	etc. 
15:22:30 <jhernandez>	that's it!
15:22:33 <joanie>	this is what jhernandez is doing
15:22:34 <bnitz1>	joanie:Would you be able to git update daily or even more frequently?
15:22:45 <joanie>	and bnitz1 THIS is why jhernandez gave is list
15:22:52 <joanie>	his list
15:22:59 <API>	bnitz1, the idea of that distro is not that
15:23:05 <API>	the purpose of that distro
15:23:09 <API>	is testing a gnome 3 environment
15:23:13 <API>	with packages and so on
15:23:23 <API>	not a developement environment with jhbuild
15:23:31 <API>	in order to be sure that users using a GNOME 3.0 distro
15:23:36 <API>	will have a working user environment
15:23:45 <API>	so
15:23:53 <API>	jhernandez, will finish that distro
15:23:58 <joanie>	bnitz1: so if you find that this distro is NOT updated enough, you can still jhbuild
15:24:01 <API>	we will try to test that user environment
15:24:05 <API>	and if it fails
15:24:12 <joanie>	just like you do now
15:24:21 <bnitz1>	joanie:I think I understand and since it's pretty darn newish, jhbuild shouldn't break as often.
15:24:22 <API>	we should solve that
15:24:27 <bnitz1>	Seems just what I was looking for.
15:24:33 <joanie>	bnitz1: yup
15:24:42 <bnitz1>	Well a Solaris version would've been better ;-)  but this will do!
15:24:52 <joanie>	and bnitz1 as I was saying, in many cases you don't need a nightly
15:24:59 <joanie>	you need something from the past week or two
15:25:03 <joanie>	and this distro will have that
15:25:14 <joanie>	and anything that is NOT 'new enough'
15:25:15 <API>	I thought that solaris was dead
15:25:20 <joanie>	needs to go on jhernandez's list
15:25:33 <joanie>	like I put Orca and webkitgtk on his list
15:25:49 <API>	this is a good point
15:25:54 <joanie>	as for Solaris, bnitz1 I will say the following:
15:25:56 <API>	that distro will include just releases
15:26:05 <API>	not nightly builds
15:26:05 <joanie>	Oracle chose to take it away from the community
15:26:15 <joanie>	cripes
15:26:19 <API>	because in the end, users will interact with releases
15:26:26 <joanie>	API not nightly
15:26:30 <joanie>	BUT in some cases from master
15:26:42 <joanie>	*if* it is on jhernandez's list
15:26:52 <joanie>	the list is the key folks
15:27:05 <API>	ok
15:27:06 <joanie>	if it ain't on the list, then it will be a release version
15:27:18 <API>	well, anything else in this testing item?
15:27:22 <joanie>	if it is on the list and jhernandez is able to build it and package it, it will be a master version
15:27:24 *	bnitz1 nods at joanie.  And it makes life more difficult for developers on both sides of the firewall.
15:28:16 *	bnitz1 looks back at the list to make sure we didn't miss anything.
15:28:30 <API>	well, 2 minutes till the end
15:28:39 <API>	so
15:28:48 <API>	lets conclude this item
15:28:53 <API>	miscellaneous time
15:28:53 *	fer has quit (No route to host)
15:29:09 <API>	some one needs to comment something meaningful and short?
15:29:11 <bnitz1>	So gnome-shell and magnifier aren't on the a11y test distro list.  Are we assuming that'll be in jhernandez's distro.
15:29:32 <API>	bnitz1, jhernandez distro is the a11y distro
15:29:33 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, yes!
15:30:01 <API>	bnitz1, I mean, jhernandez distro is the a11y test distro
15:30:01 <bnitz1>	OK thanks.
15:30:36 <joanie>	arguably it might be the accessible distro too
15:30:42 <clown>	bnitz1, if the a11y distro is a GNOME 3.0 distro, the gnome-shell will be there.  as a consequence, so will gnome-shell magnifier.
15:30:48 <joanie>	since the RT is removing some a11y options
15:30:54 <joanie>	that potentially still work
15:30:58 <joanie>	;-)
15:31:26 <joanie>	Our motto can be: 'GNOME a11y: We do what the RT cannot'
15:31:41 *	joanie steps down from her soapbox
15:32:28 <API>	well, that options are being removed from a specific panel on a specific program
15:32:29 *	bnitz1 applauds.
15:32:34 <API>	a11y things will be still there
15:32:37 <API>	anyway
15:32:40 <API>	over time
15:32:52 <API>	no miscellaneous time for anyone
15:32:55 <API>	meeting over