15:05 ::: API changed the topic of #a11y-meeting to: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
15:05 < clown> pretty empty room still.  is the 7:00 UTC better attended?
15:05 <@joanie> heh no
15:05 <@API> well clown 
15:05 <@API> 1. Should we continue having the 07:00/15:00 meeting time split? 
15:06  >>> clown marvels at his apropos-ness.
15:06 <@API> first item is about nuke 7:00 UTC schedule
15:06 <@API> when we decided that, we were thinking on people from china and australia
15:06 <@API> but, ie, last day
15:06 <@API> we were just 4 people
15:06 < li> I am ok with that
15:06 <@API> two from usa
15:06 <@API> two from spain
15:07 < li> sorry again for I miss that meeting
15:07 <@joanie> three from usa actually
15:07 <@API> li, np
15:07 <@joanie> Li you're not the only one
15:07 <@API> ah yeah, also tbsaunde on the last meeting
15:07 <@joanie> if you were, we'd tell you. It's all the people we made this time for.
15:08 <@API> anyway, in general, it seems that this 7:00 UTC efforts it is not worth
15:08 <@API> also
15:08 <@API> having the meeting always at the same time
15:08 <@API> would be easier to remember
15:08 <@API> every thursday at 15:00 UTC
15:08 <@API> no required to go to th ewiki
15:08 <@API> the wiki
15:08 <@API> to see the schedule of this week meeting
15:08 <@API> soo
15:09 < clown> API, if it would help, I could make 14:30 UTC.  I'm thinking that would be slightly earlier for Europeans.
15:09 <@API> apart of li, that already exposed it, opinions about remove 7:00 UTC schedule?
15:09 <@API> hmm
15:09 <@joanie> all in favor of nuking the 07:00 time, yawn.
15:09 <@API> well, and that would be the advantage of just 30 minutes?
15:09  >>> clown yawns
15:09 < clown> API, yes, "just" 30 min.
15:10 < mgorse> It seems fine to me, but I think that we want to keep in mind that we may want to reconsider in the future. People come and go, etc
15:10 <@API> and the advantage ...
15:10 <@API> mgorse, of course
15:10 <@joanie> mgorse: +1
15:10 <@API> we are deciding it based on the current state
15:10 <@API> if the state changes, we can rethink it
15:11 <@API> clown, I still don't understand the advantage about move to 14:30 ...
15:12 < clown> API,  it's earlier -- take Li for example.  It's 11pm there.  Would li appreciate starting at 15:30pm ?
15:12 <@API> ah ok
15:12 <@API> li, ?
15:12 < li> clown, yes, if it is not too early for US people
15:13 < clown> li, it's okay for this one Canadian.
15:13  >>> joanie doesn't minde
15:13 < clown> ;-)
15:13 <@joanie> mind either
15:13 < li> I guess all of our US attendees are from east?
15:13 <@joanie> no
15:13 <@joanie> mgorse is Central
15:13 < clown> good point.  makes it difficult for west coasters
15:13 < mgorse> It's fine with me
15:13 <@joanie> And the west coast people never come
15:13 <@joanie> to either time
15:13 <@joanie> ;-)
15:13 < clown> never mind then.
15:14 <@API> ok, so concluding
15:14 <@API> moving to a middle term solution
15:15 <@API> always at 14:30 UTC
15:15 <@API> right?
15:15  >>> joanie nods
15:15  >>> clown agrees
15:15  >>> tbsaunde sure
15:15 <@API> ok, so lets move
15:15 <@API> Bastien updated the Universal Access Settings and some orca tips. see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=638205
15:15 <@API> (item 2 btw)
15:15 <@API> well, this is just a informative item
15:15 <@API> Bastien was working on this bug
15:16 <@API> and made some changes on the gsettings thing
15:16  >>> clown reading...
15:16 <@API> ie, now the gsetting that says if a11y is enabled is toolkit-accessibility
15:16 <@API> in the same way
15:16 <@API> in the new universal access settings
15:16 <@API> thre isn't any "enable accessibility checkbutton"
15:16 <@API> as far as I understood Bastien
15:17 <@API> now that will be activated if you, for example, activate the screen reader feature
15:17 < clown> yes, that's my impression too.
15:17 <@API> as usual, it would be good if we test it as part of the "testing gnome3 environment" thing
15:17 <@API> well, as I said that was a informative item
15:17 <@API> questions, something to add?
15:18 <@API> joanie, afaik Bastien also modified orca code due this
15:18 < clown> is there ever any reason to turn off a11y once it's on?
15:18 <@API> not remember exactly what
15:18 <@joanie> yup
15:18 < mgorse> Where are these settings set in GNOME3? In gnome-shell?
15:18 <@API> mgorse, well, in the Universal Access Settings Dialog ;)
15:18 <@API> and yes, you can open it via gnome shell
15:18 < clown> is it here: org.gnome.desktop.interface.gschema.xml?
15:18 <@API> but you could also do that in the "classic desktop"
15:18 <@joanie> api http://git.gnome.org/browse/orca/commit/?id=5ee414ef9c88c37744ffab0ecea3c623d6545ace
15:19 <@API> (or fallback mode or whatever)
15:19 < clown> yes, it doesn't seem to depend on gnome shell.
15:20 <@API> mgorse, yes, it is a dialog included on gnome-control-center
15:20 ::: bnitz [~bn128650@gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com] joined #a11y-meeting
15:21  >>> clown waves at bnitz
15:21 < li> hi bnitz!
15:21 <@API> well, any other question, comment?
15:21 < clown> is there ever any reason to turn off a11y once it's on?
15:21 < bnitz> Hi everyone
15:21 < tbsaunde> clown:  if you have it on for testing something?
15:22 < clown> it looks like there is no dialog to use to turn it off, if I understand the state of things.
15:23 <@API> clown, afaiu accessibility will be turned off if the screen reader is turned off
15:23 < clown> so, I'm wondering if that's an issue.  Not saying that it is, necessarily.
15:23 < clown> API, ah, okay.
15:23 <@API> and yes, right now there are reasons to turn off accessibility if you don't require it
15:23 < clown> but what if an on screen keyboard, say, is launched?
15:24 <@API> well, I told Bastien that the toolkit thing is required when you need any AT tool
15:24 < li> what does "turn off" accessibility mean?
15:24 < clown> to be even more specific, does Caribou require that a11y be turned on?
15:24 < li> quit at-spi2-registryd?
15:24 <@API> I guess that a11y will be enabled
15:24 <@API> li, yes
15:24 ::: aleiva [~gloob@petersburgo.euler.es] joined #a11y-meeting
15:24 <@API> it is about at-spi2
15:24 <@API> like the current gcont "accessibility" variable
15:24 <@API> that basically is used for that (AFAIK)
15:24  >>> joanie waves to aleiva 
15:24 <@API> clown <API> well, I told Bastien that the toolkit thing is required when you need any AT tool
15:25 <@API> so I guess that also applies if you start any other AT tool on
15:25 < clown> okay (bear with me)...
15:25 <@API> this dialog
15:25 < li> API, that means disable atkbridge also
15:25 <@API> li, yes true
15:25 < clown> if both an onscreen keyboard is on, and orca is on, but then orca is turned off -- what's the state of a11y then?
15:25 <@API> in this case should be the same
15:25 < li> what about gail?
15:25 <@API> doesn't start the bridge or gail
15:25  >>> clown just trying to see logically how this is supposed to work.
15:25 <@API> anyway, at this moment 
15:26 <@API> the only using directly this gsetting is 
15:26 <@API> gnome-shell
15:26 <@API> and as I said, this requires some testing with a gnome 3 "compliant" environment
15:27 < li> I understand we can disable atkbridge, but I don't know how to disable gail either
15:28 <@API> li, remember that this is done right know using that .desktop files
15:28 <@API> this was an old change also made by Bastien
15:28 <@API> the thing is that, IMHI
15:28 < li> I mean for applications which has been running already
15:28 <@API> IMHO
15:28 <@API> there are a lot of doubts about the integration part of the accessibility support
15:29 <@API> li, ah ok
15:29 <@API> well, I think that in this case we are in the same point
15:29 <@API> and it would be required to logout 
15:29 < li> yes
15:30 <@API> well, almost 15 minutes with this item, I will try to summarize it:
15:30 < aleiva> API: is it documented somewhere? (about the gnome(3)-shell a11y support)
15:30 <@API> aleiva, what do you mean?
15:30 < aleiva> the current state
15:30 <@API> that a11y would be started if X is true, and Y is true?
15:30 < aleiva> wiki, blog
15:30 < aleiva> whatever
15:30 < aleiva> yes
15:31 <@API> aleiva, well, I have pending to make a blog post
15:31 < aleiva> API: ok, perfect, thanks
15:31 <@API> updating the "gnome shell a11y status" that I made
15:31 <@API> on november
15:31 <@API> but I would like to solve that orca bug first
15:31 <@joanie> :-)
15:31 <@API> anyway
15:31 <@API> <API> well, almost 15 minutes with this item, I will try to summarize it:
15:31 <@API> * Bastien made some changes on the control panel
15:32 <@API> * accessibility gsetting was renamed to "toolkit-accessibility"
15:32 <@API> * need to test
15:32 <@API> anything else, or move to the next item?
15:33 < aleiva> one thing, we develop an interesting script to have a working gnome3 environment
15:33 < aleiva> I want to release it, should make thing easier
15:33 <@API> we == ?
15:33 < aleiva> we (my company) with the works about orca
15:33 <@API> this is a script focused on the Guadalinfo distribution or just a general purpose script?
15:34 < aleiva> API: general gnome-3
15:34 < aleiva> API: in fact the project is about orca + gnome3, no more
15:34 <@API> well, if you get that working
15:34 < aleiva> sure
15:34 <@API> it would be useful for out task
15:34 <@API> "we need to test a gnome 3 environment"
15:34 <@API> not just this gsetting thing
15:34 < aleiva> exactly, that's what I want to add ;-)
15:34 <@API> s/for out/for our
15:34 <@API> ok aleiva , thanks
15:35 <@API> so lets move then ...
15:35  >>> API checking agenda
15:35 <@API> 3. Mattias Clasen gail revamp 
15:35 <@API> well, in summary
15:35 <@API> Matthias was testing gail
15:35 <@API> he detected some issues
15:35 <@API> and he said that a general review is required
15:35 <@API> and it would be use this moemnt
15:35 <@API> to move gail to gtk itself
15:36 <@API> he has a experimental git branch <I don't have the link here>
15:36 <@API> with some of them
15:36 <@API> li
15:36 <@API> something to add?
15:36 <@API> were you able to review this work?
15:36 < li> I am working on it
15:37 < li> I commit a patch to move gailarrow to gtkarrow yesterday
15:37 < li> the branch name is drop-gail
15:37 <@API> well, I have just a question
15:37 < li> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/log/?h=drop-gail
15:38 <@API> Matthias mentioned that it would be required to review part of the focus management
15:38 <@API> code
15:38 <@API> I guess that he is talking about the one on gail.c
15:38 <@API> it is supposed to be done now
15:38 <@API> or after the move?
15:39 < li> I think after
15:39 <@API> so where this gail.c code will be placed?
15:39 < li> this is step 4 in his mail
15:39 <@API> or the gail.c will be just moved
15:39 < li> I don't think this through now
15:39 <@API> ok
15:40 < li> but I think as a gtkmodule
15:40 < li> there should be a file for initialize
15:40 < li> just don't know where we will keep it
15:40 <@API> and the final question, you have started to review it and contribute, will you be able to continue to do that?
15:41 < li> yes, that's my plan, if nothing with higher priority comes out
15:41 <@API> awesome
15:41 <@API> this is a good new
15:42 < li> I am glad that this move can solve many very old gail bugs
15:42 <@joanie> yay!
15:42 < li> i filed them even before I become the maintainer :)
15:43 <@API> ;)
15:43 <@API> well, li, anything else to comment in this point?
15:43 < mgorse> It would really be nice if it somehow helps with treeview performance; Matthias implied that it might
15:43 < li> nothing for now, I just plan to move the widget one by one
15:44 < li> yes, it might be, but for sure this move only create opportunities to do this, much more work are still needed
15:44 <@API> mgorse, well, he also mentioned that due the treeview revamp, it would be required to adjust the a11y implementation
15:45 <@API> but, ok, we can conclude that this item is finished
15:45 <@API> so lets move to next point:
15:45 <@API> 4. Your topic here 
15:45 <@API> ups
15:45 <@API> 5. If time allows: AT registration on at-spi2? 
15:45 <@joanie> lol
15:46 <@API> well, this is due a mail that I sent to gnome-accessibility-devel
15:46  >>> API searching
15:46 <@API> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-devel/2011-February/msg00037.html
15:47 <@API> some people already answered this
15:47 <@API> like li
15:47 <@API> mgorse, did you read that mail?
15:47 < li> my only concern is that i don't know what will happen when we create accessible objects for all widgets in all applications at the same time
15:47 <@API> joanie, as an AT maintainer it also involves you
15:47 <@joanie> :-)
15:47 < li> although i think it is a good idea
15:48 <@API> li, yeah, this is an issue, as I said this is something that we require to check
15:48 <@API> anyway
15:48 <@joanie> API the idea sounds good to me, but I'm leaving it up to the Li's and Mike's of this world to comment
15:48 < li> we can try it!
15:48 <@API> take into accoun that most people that require a11y
15:48 < mgorse> looking to look at it again. You want to do this for 3.0?
15:48 <@API> will have a11y on all the time
15:48 <@joanie> but it sure sounds like the right thing to do
15:48 <@API> and that would just allow to start on a11y "on heat"
15:48 <@API> so I guess that it would be something that just happen once
15:49 <@API> mgorse, yes
15:49 < mgorse> Right now AT-SPI2 shouldn't send events over the wire if no one is listening, but it will still listen for gail events...
15:49 <@API> instead of create a bug to be added on the "towards atk2.0"
15:49 <@API> I wanted to discuss it a little first, to check if it makes sense or if it is stupid
15:49 <@joanie> I don't think it's stupid.
15:49 <@API> mgorse, well at-spi2 no
15:49 <@API> but I guess that the bridge
15:49 < clown> makes sense to me, API.
15:50 < mgorse> So then we'd load gail and atk-bridge all the time, and only really enable atk-bridge when accessibility is enabled
15:50 <@API> send the gail (atk implementor) events to at-spi2
15:50 <@API> right?
15:50 <@API> hmm, so you are proposing to just avoid the overhead if a11y is enabled instead of a AT registration method?
15:50 <@API> mgorse, ?
15:51 < mgorse> That's how I was interpreting what you were proposing; it itn's clear to me right now how else we could have it register
15:51 < mgorse> so feel free to propose something else
15:52 <@API> mgorse, well in the same way that apps
15:52 <@API> are added to the register
15:52 <@API> I was suggesting that AT tools get also registered 
15:53 <@API> so just enable the atk-bridge if there are any AT tools there
15:53 <@API> anyway, as usual, a11y-meeting it is not the place to discuss technical details
15:53 < aleiva> like a dependency counter?
15:54 < aleiva> :-)
15:54 <@API> aleiva, yeah something like that
15:54 < aleiva> go on
15:54 <@API> so as this is not the place 
15:54 <@API> lets discuss it elsewhere
15:54 <@joanie> :-)
15:54 <@API> but it seems that in general
15:54 <@API> people thing that the idea makes sense
15:54 <@API> so I will create a bug
15:54 <@API> and discuss the details there
15:54 <@API> people?
15:55 <@joanie> sounds good to me
15:55 < li> great
15:55 < clown> yah
15:55 <@API> ok, 
15:55 <@API> well, just 5 minutes till the end
15:55  >>> clown of the world?
15:55 <@API> so
15:55 <@API> miscellaneous time
15:55 <@API> if someone has something short and valuable to say
15:55 <@API> about *accessibility*
15:56 <@API> it is your moment
15:56 < clown> short (maybe valuable) --
15:56 < clown> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=642032  Magnifier gsettings have been moved to a more central location (outside of Gnome Shell).
15:56 < clown> and...
15:57 < clown> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=643086 - adding UI for the setting to Universal Access.
15:57 < clown> Just FYI.
15:57  >>> clown is done.
15:57 < tbsaunde> fer asked to poke about an api break for atk on bug bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=638377 so we can have sain text update signals so bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619002 is fixable :)
15:58  >>> API checking a lot of bugzilla links
15:58 < tbsaunde> :)
15:58 < mgorse> Has the code been committed to atk already? And is it okay to add this now?
15:59 < tbsaunde> mgorse:  code hasn't been commited to atk yet, it would require breaking api freeze, but afaik its is only an addition
16:00 < tbsaunde> so, imho it should be fine
16:00 <@API> tbsaunde, well, afaik
16:00 <@API> fer
16:00 <@API> made a change to 
16:00 <@API> avoid the ABI break
16:01 <@API> in his initial patch
16:01 <@API> he was modifying the class structure
16:01 <@API> adding the signals slots
16:01 <@API> and then he modified it
16:01 <@API> to avoid that
16:02 < tbsaunde> API:  ok, that sounds familiar, but I'm just the messanger :-)
16:02 <@API> ok
16:02 <@API> well
16:02 <@API> over time
16:03 <@API> so if nobody wants to add anything ...
16:03 < tbsaunde> API:  sorry, I had thought fer put it on the agenda until 30 minutes ago :/
16:03 <@API> tbsaunde, well we have miscellaneous time for this kind of things
16:03 < tbsaunde> yup
16:05 <@API> well, meeting over!!
16:05 <@API> thanks to be here