Nov 18 16:00:59 tick Nov 18 16:01:00 tack Nov 18 16:01:01 toe Nov 18 16:01:06 well, meeting time Nov 18 16:01:14 people, are you here? Nov 18 16:01:21 yup Nov 18 16:02:04 well, although it is the second item Nov 18 16:02:09 I will start with Unity Nov 18 16:02:17 I added that item because the other day Nov 18 16:02:23 * clown (~clown@205.211.169.2) has joined #a11y Nov 18 16:02:30 lamalex started to ask questions about atk and at-spi2 Nov 18 16:02:45 so this was just a point about askinf for a update Nov 18 16:02:56 we already received a mail from Penelope Nov 18 16:03:09 so this point is going to be done via email Nov 18 16:03:20 where Penelope = Pendulum ;) Nov 18 16:03:51 and I will continue with another little item Nov 18 16:03:59 4. Status of the migration to PyGObject GnomeGoals/PythonIntrospectionPorting https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=626218 Nov 18 16:04:06 eeejay, dpellicer anyone here? Nov 18 16:06:04 * lamalex has quit (Ex-Chat) Nov 18 16:06:19 well, it seems that no ;) Nov 18 16:07:11 moving on Nov 18 16:07:17 3. Google Code-in (hoping Bryen to be there) Nov 18 16:07:37 definitively I will send a mail to Bryen, I guess that he is in another trip Nov 18 16:07:53 so lets go to item 1. Nov 18 16:08:03 1. Roadmap Nov 18 16:08:04 * joanie laughs Nov 18 16:08:11 thanks API for the delay Nov 18 16:08:36 API have you had a chance to look at it? Nov 18 16:09:43 eeeh, no Nov 18 16:09:44 http://live.gnome.org/Orca/Roadmap Nov 18 16:09:50 clown: no Nov 18 16:09:51 clown, this is the orca one ;) Nov 18 16:09:58 joanie is talking about the big one Nov 18 16:10:00 gnome Nov 18 16:10:05 url? Nov 18 16:10:08 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Roadmap Nov 18 16:10:12 hot off the presses Nov 18 16:10:13 joanie, anyway I took a look to each "section" Nov 18 16:10:14 * gk4 has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds) Nov 18 16:10:14 thanks Nov 18 16:10:22 so I guess that this is the union of all Nov 18 16:10:26 so here's where we are with this folks Nov 18 16:10:38 I took an initial stab Nov 18 16:10:42 based on current roadmaps Nov 18 16:10:49 your information from private emails Nov 18 16:10:50 etc. Nov 18 16:10:51 * clown wonders if this is a draft Nov 18 16:11:10 because if we tried to do a full team writing effort, there would be chaos Nov 18 16:11:25 full team review and editing is easier Nov 18 16:11:39 so that's why it's covered in "draft" instances Nov 18 16:11:53 I'm sure we have things to add, things to change, things to argue about Nov 18 16:12:08 s/argue/discuss/ Nov 18 16:12:12 and what is there is not what we must have/present to the board Nov 18 16:12:25 but it's a pretty darned thorough starting point Nov 18 16:12:31 from which we can, uh, discuss Nov 18 16:13:02 so what I would ask y'all to do, sooner rather than later (like after this meeting would be awesome! ;-)), is take a look Nov 18 16:13:16 we need to present this to the Board like next week Nov 18 16:13:21 with the goal being: Nov 18 16:13:27 Get more funding and/or manpower Nov 18 16:13:39 because companies ain't supporting us (for the most part) Nov 18 16:13:54 Andalucían monies may be drying up before much longer Nov 18 16:13:59 and we're heading into GNOME 3 Nov 18 16:14:05 and it's gonna suck Nov 18 16:14:12 so we need more resources Nov 18 16:14:24 and the board wants to help us get them Nov 18 16:14:34 btw, it is a quick though, after finishing the roadmap, with just the roadmap, companies would know how to fund something? Nov 18 16:14:56 I was thinking if it would make sense to create "small project definition" based on the roadmap Nov 18 16:15:06 there's that Nov 18 16:15:08 so if any company says "ok, I would like to fund something" Nov 18 16:15:10 ok Nov 18 16:15:13 there's what's funded and what's not Nov 18 16:15:23 which I agree with and think is the next step Nov 18 16:15:32 right now, I just want to get it all listed Nov 18 16:15:45 in a format that lends itself to taking that next step Nov 18 16:15:52 and giving us funding and/or engineers Nov 18 16:15:57 for something specific Nov 18 16:16:00 make sense?? Nov 18 16:16:10 yes, I was foreseeing too much Nov 18 16:16:15 lets focus in the current task Nov 18 16:16:40 (not saying that exactly. cause you're correct in what you're suggesting) Nov 18 16:17:07 but in terms of getting full team input, I want everyone to just be thinking about what items need to be on this list Nov 18 16:17:19 (and any which might need to be removed) Nov 18 16:17:37 so the summary is Nov 18 16:17:45 people we have a roadmap here http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Roadmap Nov 18 16:17:49 review and edit is please Nov 18 16:18:20 definitely review. Minor edits welcome. Major edits probably need some discussion. Nov 18 16:18:32 especially if it's a cross-module section Nov 18 16:18:42 ah ok, so your suggestion is not add items directly on the roadmap Nov 18 16:18:42 if it's strictly your module, edit away :-) Nov 18 16:18:46 something like Nov 18 16:18:59 small additions and subtractions are encouraged Nov 18 16:19:00 send a mail to you (me?) with "what about XX?" Nov 18 16:19:24 Either that or edit the wiki with a "HEY what about ....?" Nov 18 16:19:40 that way the full team can see the discussion and see it in the context to which it applies Nov 18 16:19:55 I just don't want to find a totally different document next time I look Nov 18 16:20:23 and some of the stuff in there is there for very specific (but not necessarily stated) reasons/goals Nov 18 16:20:23 ah ok, so makes sense to add a section on the roadmap for suggestions? Nov 18 16:20:26 ;-) Nov 18 16:20:30 love it Nov 18 16:20:32 in order to make things clearer? Nov 18 16:20:33 yes, sounds good Nov 18 16:20:39 I will do that Nov 18 16:21:36 ok, something else about the roadmap? Nov 18 16:23:14 maybe this is too specific, and too close to me, but ... Nov 18 16:23:40 I'm having a frequent problem running Orca and Gnome Shell together. Nov 18 16:24:23 If this is unique to me, well, then it's my problem. But, if it turns into a general problem, then shouldn't it have its own bullet on the the roadmap? Nov 18 16:24:50 * Assistive technologies and testing tools must work with the new GNOME 3 environment, including GNOME Shell, Gtk 3, and GSettings. Nov 18 16:25:01 ah, missed it. Nov 18 16:25:01 Orca == an AT Nov 18 16:25:06 having said that Nov 18 16:25:21 if you feel that we need individual bullets for each AT+GNOME 3 combination Nov 18 16:25:24 we can do that Nov 18 16:25:29 I had that before Nov 18 16:25:34 but the list was daunting Nov 18 16:25:52 and the reality is that we'll be testing all this anyway Nov 18 16:25:55 I would add something like general testing Nov 18 16:25:56 and it doesn't need funding Nov 18 16:25:58 yes, I can see how that could be daunting. Nov 18 16:26:15 but, if it reflects reality... I don't know though. Nov 18 16:26:16 fer separate from the AEGIS stuff Nov 18 16:26:30 I dont really know the AEGIS stuff Nov 18 16:26:46 = Improved Regression Testing Tools for Applications and Toolkits = Nov 18 16:26:48 but something like a simple matrix with very simple tasks to ensure everything is working in each release Nov 18 16:26:58 see that section ^^ Nov 18 16:27:03 joanie: you mean AEGIS + GNOME, right? (There are other non-GNOME AEGIS projects). Nov 18 16:27:14 clown see that section too Nov 18 16:27:26 * clown searches Nov 18 16:27:34 there's a link Nov 18 16:27:37 in the toc at the top Nov 18 16:27:47 yeah, that kind of testing would be so great Nov 18 16:27:56 but I was talking more in a short term, like now :) Nov 18 16:28:20 like, nothing in GNOME 2.91.2 broke the whole X Nov 18 16:28:22 fer: "like now". 1. october 2010 was last month Nov 18 16:28:39 2. work with bnitz if you need something in hand sooner Nov 18 16:28:41 * clown sees not mention of aegis in that section ? Nov 18 16:28:54 * gk4 (~gk4@75-13-80-93.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) has joined #a11y Nov 18 16:28:55 clown: I didn't use the word AEGIS Nov 18 16:29:04 * ragb has quit (Leaving.) Nov 18 16:29:05 * ragb (~ragb@194.210.228.141) has joined #a11y Nov 18 16:29:09 I would be happy to add it Nov 18 16:29:20 but that's one of those "small changes" you could add ;-) Nov 18 16:29:25 when I'm done editing Nov 18 16:29:26 ;-) Nov 18 16:29:28 whoops, we are talking past one another, joanie Nov 18 16:29:45 above, you said "fer separate from the AEGIS stuff". Nov 18 16:29:55 what did you mean? Nov 18 16:30:08 * joanie declares a time out Nov 18 16:30:11 2 seconds please Nov 18 16:30:14 some other tests I guess Nov 18 16:30:21 fer, some other tests? Nov 18 16:30:44 okay Nov 18 16:30:46 clown Nov 18 16:30:47 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Roadmap#Improved_and_Increased_Access_to_Applications.2C_Toolkits.2C_and_Environments Nov 18 16:30:56 oops Nov 18 16:30:58 I mean, if AEGIS testing stuff is going to be ready soon, it's ok for me, but it is coming at Apr 2010, I would like to have something in the mean time Nov 18 16:30:59 wrong link Nov 18 16:31:12 Apr 2011 I meant Nov 18 16:31:15 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Roadmap#Improved_Regression_Testing_Tools_for_Applications_and_Toolkits Nov 18 16:31:18 * clown reading Nov 18 16:31:27 clown, read the one I just pasted Nov 18 16:31:36 gotcah Nov 18 16:31:40 "gotcha" Nov 18 16:31:42 so what I was saying is: Nov 18 16:31:59 that is the AEGIS project; I simply have not said "hey this is the aegis project" Nov 18 16:32:10 AH! that explains it. Nov 18 16:32:11 fer, something like what? and anyway, if we got a fund project to do so Nov 18 16:32:20 :-) Nov 18 16:32:23 you really think that it would arrive before apr 2010? Nov 18 16:32:25 it was my assumption that Fer was reading the document on the wiki, saw the testing section, and was familiar with what aegis is doing Nov 18 16:32:42 API: somke testing of every unstable release of GNOME 2.91 for example Nov 18 16:32:52 * andre41 (~andre41@g1.blanicka25.net) has joined #a11y Nov 18 16:32:56 some guy doing manual testing to check nothing big is broken Nov 18 16:32:56 some testing of *every*? Nov 18 16:33:06 to be started while bnitz is working in other one? Nov 18 16:33:10 to arrive before aprl 2010? Nov 18 16:33:12 fer: then here is what I propose: Add it Nov 18 16:33:31 I mean, I would need to check with bnitz its roadmap Nov 18 16:33:40 fer:O.K. Nov 18 16:33:53 if we get proper testing at proper timing (i.e: not to close to the final GNOME 3.0 relase) it's ok Nov 18 16:34:11 fer:automated testing of every unstable release (or every commit) wouldn't arrive before April Nov 18 16:34:22 if not, I would propose some short term quick and dirty testing, that would be replaced by the proper testing when it is ready Nov 18 16:34:27 but some tests would be available. Nov 18 16:34:33 quick n dirty we can do. Nov 18 16:34:37 lol Nov 18 16:35:09 so fer and bnitz: Can I ask you to develop that section as you see fit, but in keeping with the overall structure of the current document? Nov 18 16:35:10 yeah, some manual test cases + anything else we could run from AEGIS testing would do it Nov 18 16:35:27 joanie:O.K. Nov 18 16:35:41 sure Nov 18 16:35:47 thanks guys Nov 18 16:36:07 joanie:And I think we can reuse most of the existing manual accessibility tests. Nov 18 16:36:32 joanie:Certainly the "sanity test" bullet points you updated last week. Nov 18 16:36:43 joanie, taking into account my "additional suggestions section" suggestion Nov 18 16:37:00 this bnitz and fer proposal should be placed on the document or as an additional suggestion? Nov 18 16:37:18 API I just asked them to work directly in the testing section Nov 18 16:37:23 changing as they saw fit Nov 18 16:37:47 that's a case where it's not cross-module (I mean, it is, but it doesn't change what other team members do) Nov 18 16:37:55 as bnitz is the testing work guy Nov 18 16:38:06 and fer is the one with concerns Nov 18 16:38:15 yeah, I would just add something like "start using test as they are ready (even in non-automated way) to ensure proper testing during the GNOME 2.91 development cycle Nov 18 16:38:26 and the points there are lifted from a bnitz email (thanks btw brian) Nov 18 16:38:40 fer: awesome. please do Nov 18 16:38:41 :-) Nov 18 16:39:48 so, after more or less 20 min talking about roadmap Nov 18 16:39:50 anything else? Nov 18 16:39:54 ugh yeah Nov 18 16:39:55 quick Nov 18 16:40:04 some roadmaps are missing Nov 18 16:40:09 jrocha's Nov 18 16:40:22 anything you (API) want to include about clutter/cally Nov 18 16:40:27 :-) Nov 18 16:40:37 so if you "owe me" a roadmap Nov 18 16:40:38 joanie, hi, let's go priv Nov 18 16:40:43 I have been just talking with jrocha 10 min ago Nov 18 16:40:46 please provide it Nov 18 16:40:49 ah ok Nov 18 16:40:50 API k Nov 18 16:40:55 * joanie is done Nov 18 16:41:00 * joanie hates roadmaps Nov 18 16:41:01 lol Nov 18 16:41:06 ok, as any other on the team Nov 18 16:41:16 I will review the roadmap and add it to suggestions or whatever Nov 18 16:41:24 thanks Nov 18 16:41:30 joanie, I haven't replied because I wanted to check with API if I had understood it Nov 18 16:41:41 no worries Nov 18 16:41:54 but we re-approach the board next week or the week after Nov 18 16:41:54 joanie, I don't know if I have such a roadmap regarding a11y for OCRFeeder Nov 18 16:42:10 then just bullet points like msanchez did Nov 18 16:42:12 joanie, because OCRFeeder is not a11y-dedicated Nov 18 16:42:32 let's go with your private chat suggestion Nov 18 16:42:37 joanie, for example, there's just one feature that I think would be cool for users with a11y needs Nov 18 16:42:44 we broke the team "don't deep-dive" rule (my fault) Nov 18 16:42:57 ok Nov 18 16:42:59 * clown our collective fault Nov 18 16:45:29 ok people can we move to a different item? Nov 18 16:45:36 just 15 min til the end... Nov 18 16:45:43 no objection here Nov 18 16:47:07 joanie, ? Nov 18 16:47:15 oh I'm done Nov 18 16:47:16 sorry Nov 18 16:47:40 ok, so lets move to our usual update Nov 18 16:47:51 taking into account last TheMuso mail Nov 18 16:47:58 about performance on at-spi with dbus Nov 18 16:48:07 something that would affect shipping at-spi2 on Ubuntu Nov 18 16:48:20 mgorse, something to add Nov 18 16:48:34 and just to have them on the minutes Nov 18 16:48:47 have you got here some links of the bugs related to at-spi2 performance? Nov 18 16:49:01 I remember one related to gdbus, but now sure Nov 18 16:49:10 * API waiting mgorse Nov 18 16:49:46 Oh, not sure if we hae a bug for aht Nov 18 16:49:57 a bug for that Nov 18 16:50:17 I could file one I guess. I'm trying to update the docs before I reply to his email Nov 18 16:50:31 update the wiki I mean Nov 18 16:51:10 Oh, if you mean the gdbus bug I filed, it's BGO#634471 Nov 18 16:51:24 but as far as at-spi2 goes it just means that I'm going to use libdbus rather than gdbus Nov 18 16:51:37 mgorse, yes, this one Nov 18 16:51:55 mgorse, do you think that makes sense a meta-bug about the performance on at-spi2? Nov 18 16:52:08 I mean that we now that it is the main risk on at-spi2 Nov 18 16:52:14 but right now is hard to track it Nov 18 16:52:24 wouldn't hurt to have one Nov 18 16:54:16 ok Nov 18 16:55:07 well 5 minutes til the end Nov 18 16:55:16 lets start miscellaneous time Nov 18 16:55:30 all love this time Nov 18 16:56:01 anyone wants to ask/comment/say anything out of the agenda? Nov 18 16:57:02 * ragb1 (~ragb@194.210.228.141) has joined #a11y Nov 18 16:57:06 * ragb has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Nov 18 16:57:46 * msanchez thinks everyone should watch Clint Eastwood films at some point Nov 18 16:57:52 heh Nov 18 16:58:06 * gk4 has quit (Leaving.) Nov 18 16:58:06 way to embrace "miscellaneous" msanchez Nov 18 16:58:11 ...not that misc, I guess :-) Nov 18 16:58:28 wow... Nov 18 16:59:12 I just filed FDO#31731 for at-spi2 performance Nov 18 16:59:46 mgorse, thanks Nov 18 16:59:53 * ragb (~ragb@194.210.228.141) has joined #a11y Nov 18 17:00:35 * lamalex (~alex@pool-71-185-160-118.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #a11y Nov 18 17:00:43 * ragb1 has quit (Leaving.) Nov 18 17:01:12 fantastic Nov 18 17:01:13 ok Nov 18 17:01:16 meeting over