(15:01:08) joanie: Hey y'all. API left me in charge, so run for the hills screaming. :-P
(15:02:08) ***clown arrrgggghhhhh!
(15:02:11) clown: :-)
(15:02:22) ***Bryen swoops in
(15:02:32) joanie: Well, clown's awake anyway :-)
(15:02:36) Bryen: joanie, This is a big problem...
(15:02:41) Bryen: There are no hills in the Midwest
(15:02:42) joanie: what is a big problem?
(15:02:42) ***clown *yawn*
(15:02:48) Bryen: :-)
(15:02:55) joanie: you will need to run faster then Bryen
(15:03:05) ***clown reminds everyone to not take me too seriously
(15:03:09) joanie: fast enough to locate hills in a timely fashion so that you can begin screaming
(15:03:25) ***Bryen high-fives slee
(15:03:38) ***clown notes that there are very few hills in downtown Toronto.
(15:03:44) slee: high-five right back at ya
(15:03:46) Bryen: and asks slee if we can arrange some time outside of the meeting to discuss stuff
(15:03:50) joanie: Clown don't worry we don^H^H^H
(15:04:10) joanie: FFS y'all just run and scream, okay? :-P
(15:04:11) ***Bryen seriously wants to honk clown's nose
(15:04:12) slee: Bryen: eh?
(15:04:30) ***clown puts on a nose gay
(15:04:36) Bryen: slee, to discuss a buncha outreach stuff now that you're back to civilization :-)
(15:04:40) bnitz: bnitz here too, first time a11y mtg newbie
(15:04:49) joanie: bnitz: woo hoo! Welcome
(15:04:52) Bryen: welcome bnitz
(15:05:14) bnitz: Thanks all!
(15:05:14) clown: hi bnitz
(15:05:34) joanie: Given bnitz is here and that it's ever so slightly after 15:00 UTC, I saw we get the proverbial show on the proverbial road
(15:05:44) ***joanie bangs a gavel-like object
(15:05:47) slee: Bryen - yep back in the real world and ready to rock, next week
(15:05:52) joanie: Looking at the agenda
(15:05:55) ***slee looks at agenda
(15:05:59) ***clown s/gavel-like/scepter-like/
(15:06:00) slee: heh
(15:06:00) joanie: Travel Committee as always
(15:06:13) joanie: So chatting with API this morning
(15:06:19) joanie: Where we are at is this:
(15:06:31) ***Bryen looks at the wall
(15:06:50) joanie: We have taken what we hope is the final list of attendees with airfare and estimated hotel rates based on the hotel aleiva found for us
(15:06:55) slee: I got email saying they had my application
(15:07:00) joanie: it's just about ready to be sent off to the travel committee
(15:07:05) joanie: and hopefully they will bless it
(15:07:19) joanie: and we will never, ever EVER have to talk about travel, funding, and committees again
(15:07:30) slee: Wh00t
(15:07:32) joanie: slee: yeah, they send those out
(15:07:53) joanie: but what we aren't yet sure of is if we have enough money for everyone to go (a lot of people submitted applications)
(15:08:10) joanie: some of whom are not, well, GNOME contributors. :-)
(15:08:11) slee: joanie: sure
(15:08:19) clown: joanie, slee: I haven't heard anything lately about my application to the gnome foundation. About 4 (3?) weeks ago, I got confirmation that they had it.
(15:08:22) slee: ehhm
(15:08:29) joanie: clown: stay tuned
(15:08:34) joanie: I think we're almost there
(15:08:59) tomeu: I would recommend pinging regularly
(15:08:59) slee: clown: seems to be the way - I got confirmation few days ago
(15:09:00) joanie: and hopefully very soon we will have confirmation so that those the Foundation can afford to send will be able to book flights
(15:09:12) clown: joanie, well a problem is that I'm sharing the hotel with a co-worker (who has other funding), but he needs to know *soon* about my funding so he can book the room.
(15:09:26) joanie: understood
(15:09:41) clown: perhaps I should ping my contact (bharath) at the GF? Or is that not apropos?
(15:09:56) joanie: clown: Your friend would tell you the following:
(15:10:04) joanie: We need the final list from the GNOME a11y people
(15:10:10) clown: ah.
(15:10:12) joanie: the GNOME a11y people are about to send them the list
(15:10:15) clown: that would by "us"
(15:10:21) joanie: correct :-)
(15:10:21) clown: 'be "us"'
(15:10:24) joanie: yup
(15:10:49) joanie: it turns out that there is this (what I personally consider to be) silly bouncing back and fourth
(15:10:54) joanie: forth even
(15:15:05) joanie: people submit apps to the committee
(15:15:13) joanie: the committee bounces that back to us
(15:15:18) joanie: and says compile a list
(15:15:23) joanie: IMHO they HAVE the list
(15:15:26) joanie: anyhoo
(15:15:39) Bryen: I think the whole process could definitely have been stream-lined and got overly bureaucratic
(15:15:41) joanie: we are about to re-bounce the re-list back to them for re-consideration and final approval
(15:15:58) joanie: Bryen: I totally agree. And that it was this ... bouncing ... was news to me and API
(15:16:03) clown: joanie, you re-rock!
(15:16:08) Bryen: and leaving people in a bit of a lurch as the longer this takes, the more we're responsible for differences from original quote and final quote
(15:16:10) joanie: re-thanks
(15:16:15) joanie: Bryen: I agree
(15:16:16) clown: re-wlcm
(15:13:01) joanie: So other comments, questions, or observations about the inefficient nature of the process? :-)
(15:13:34) Bryen: I responded to API a few mins ago about a query he had
(15:13:36) bnitz: joanie: More efficient than those going the corposnafu funding route?
(15:13:47) joanie: Heh
(15:13:50) Bryen: seems he was under the impression that the request of interpreters would be funded outside of GNOME. Which I never said
(15:14:13) joanie: Given your new overlords (as I understand it), I am TOTALLY refraining from commenting. ;-)
(15:14:23) aleiva: joanie: I'll still waiting until confirmation for hotel reservation
(15:14:28) joanie: Bryen: huh?
(15:14:32) aleiva: joanie: is it ok?
(15:14:40) bnitz: joanie: ;-)
(15:14:42) joanie: aleiva: It's good. :-)
(15:15:00) Bryen: joanie, my sentiments exactly when I read it... "Huh?" :-)
(15:15:02) aleiva: joanie: please ping me you or API when it happens
(15:15:25) joanie: aleiva: Do you have any doubts that I won't come and find you *grin*
(15:15:30) bnitz: joanie: Fww I plan to attend but can't book anything until (shrugs) Hope tryp and/or Seville has a room or two left by then.
(15:15:39) aleiva: joanie: I'm polite, indeed
(15:16:06) joanie: bnitz: Meet aleiva: He's my (Orca's) new co-maintainer
(15:16:06) ***clown sympathizes with bnitz re: rooms
(15:16:12) joanie: and aleiva is in Sevilla
(15:16:14) aleiva: bnitz: hi
(15:16:31) Bryen: Maybe we can stay in Italica? In one of the old ruins? :-)
(15:16:37) bnitz: aleiva: Hi. Good to meet you!
(15:16:50) joanie: aleiva: I've never met bnitz, but he's going to do the testing session and he is with Orca [post-meeting edit by JD: Oracle](formerly from Sun) (right bnitz)
(15:17:04) aleiva: nice
(15:17:06) bnitz: joanie:Yes.
(15:17:20) Bryen: Awesome, bnitz
(15:17:20) joanie: bnitz: anyhoo, the point is regarding rooms and such, talk to aleiva. He will find you something.
(15:17:40) ***joanie is grateful every day that the Consorcio gave us aleiva
(15:17:56) aleiva: well, was not the consorcio but myself ! :D
(15:18:01) bnitz: joanie: Thanks
(15:18:02) joanie: (for Orca work; not for hotels. hotel is a side benefit)
(15:18:12) joanie: aleiva: Well, you know what I mean. :-)
(15:18:22) joanie: okay, enough with the (my) chit chat
(15:18:28) joanie: moving on in the agenda
(15:18:31) bnitz: Alieva: I'm using ldtp, orca and bits of accerciser
(15:18:41) slee: my only point is earlier you book the cheaper in many cases
(15:18:57) slee: and I'm still waiting to get confirm for flight and hotel
(15:18:58) Bryen: Just a quick FYI: I just got word last night that LatinoWare is sponsoring me to do an A11y Keynote in Brazil in November.
(15:18:58) bnitz: s/Alieva/aleiva (sorry...)
(15:19:05) aleiva: bnitz: np
(15:19:11) joanie: Bryen: I realize that last time you said that there would be no more updates about alternative funding until you had updates about alternative funding
(15:19:13) Bryen: Seems a11y is a big conversational word these days in South America
(15:19:17) joanie: Bryen: cool
(15:19:42) Bryen: joanie, Nothing more atm. Still pinging. Not giving up :-)
(15:19:51) joanie: Bryen: but since I see "alternative funding sources" as an agenda item, I am obliged to ask... Ah. thanks. :-)
(15:20:03) joanie: moving on
(15:20:05) joanie: Posters
(15:20:06) joanie: heh
(15:20:15) clown: may I have the scepter?
(15:20:19) joanie: clown: sure
(15:20:46) clown: Since I am submitting a paper, one of my co-authors has said he will make a poster based on that paper.
(15:21:06) clown: we are working now to get it all done by next tues.
(15:21:14) ***clown reliquishes scepter
(15:21:23) Bryen: What's the topic about?
(15:21:35) clown: gnome shell magnifier
(15:21:48) Bryen: Cool
(15:21:59) clown: thanks
(15:22:07) joanie: I'm honestly still wondering what to write about Orca
(15:22:11) Bryen: man the 31'st is approaching too fast
(15:22:18) clown: indeed...
(15:22:19) joanie: I mean, I can write about Orca all day
(15:22:26) joanie: but we haven't done any research or the like
(15:22:31) aleiva: I confirm that
(15:22:44) joanie: and there is no "Orca paper" per se
(15:22:47) joanie: so....
(15:22:57) joanie: But I will come up with something
(15:22:57) Bryen: joanie, Just give a brief summary of what Orca is and why it rocks better than others
(15:23:06) clown: we haven't done research on gs-mag, but some user testing has been done with in Europe. Don't know the results, though.
(15:23:10) joanie: Bryen: true....
(15:23:19) Bryen: keep it simple, not too much text or no one will read it
(15:23:23) joanie: But as you know, posters are academicy
(15:23:32) joanie: and I can write academicy
(15:23:46) joanie: but I need some academicy content. Which I lack
(15:23:49) joanie: but I'll punt
(15:23:58) slee: joanie: I did one for a conf on Jambu and had no research - it's good to tell a stroy
(15:24:03) slee: *story
(15:24:06) joanie: it's just one more thing I don't have time for
(15:24:15) joanie: slee: Story time. Yay! ;-)
(15:24:24) joanie: sorry. That's a good idea. thanks!
(15:24:45) ***joanie wants to start doing research. But that's another topic for another (and perhaps different) meeting
(15:24:52) davidb: "Call me Ishmael,"
(15:24:54) joanie: so if there's nothing else on posters
(15:25:01) joanie: davidb: You are Ishmael
(15:25:11) davidb: more like moby really
(15:25:16) aleiva: haha
(15:25:21) joanie: bnitz: Testing session details
(15:25:28) joanie: bnitz: Floor is yours
(15:25:33) ***clown davidb is a whale?
(15:25:41) slee: joanie: http://fullmeasure.co.uk/raate07/
(15:25:49) davidb: clown: GET. IN. MY. BELLY!
(15:26:00) ***clown is not Job
(15:26:04) joanie: y'all....
(15:26:14) ***clown is shutting up now.
(15:26:45) bnitz: joanie: The short of it is, how to test if your application is accessible. An A11Y automation test tinderbox.
(15:27:03) clown: bnitz: cool...
(15:27:06) heidi: joanie: I'd be quite interested in doing research related to OSS and Gnome.
(15:27:22) joanie: heidi: (awesome. let's talk later)
(15:27:22) ***Bryen hugs heidi
(15:27:27) heidi: :-)
(15:27:39) heidi: joanie: Yes, I'd be happy to talk.
(15:27:40) bnitz: joanie:It isn't written yet but I should have enough bits together to show how you would right this kind of test, what makes a11y break...
(15:28:18) Bryen: Is this based on LDTP, or?
(15:28:20) aleiva: bnitz: only a question, which entity validate the result?
(15:28:21) joanie: Heh. We know what makes it break. *grin* But that would be good to have for passing along
(15:28:46) bnitz: aleiva: I don't understand the question.
(15:29:04) aleiva: bnitz: you use ldtp for make and replay the test
(15:29:06) aleiva: bnitz: ok?
(15:29:15) bnitz: Bryen:Yes but I intend to make the tests follow a standard which would allow them to be used as accerciser plugins. (It remains to be seen whether this is possible)
(15:29:16) aleiva: bnitz: but what you use for a11y validation?
(15:29:26) aleiva: bnitz: at-spi?
(15:29:44) aleiva: bnitz: how you check that the a11y is valid for application X
(15:29:45) bnitz: aleiva:pyatspi + ldtp.
(15:30:04) Bryen: bnitz, Awesome. It would be great if we can convert that down the line to a published document for various devs and distros to refer to on a permanent basis
(15:30:26) bnitz: aleiva: pyatspi + ldtp with accerciser providing the test framework.
(15:30:34) bnitz: Bryen:Yes
(15:30:56) joanie: I would also like to see some sort of never-ending GNOME Goal related to using this framework once it is fully implemented
(15:31:05) aleiva: bnitz: is it released somewhere?
(15:31:12) joanie: We lose so, so, so much time due to regressions in other people's modules
(15:31:14) bnitz: The kinds of things to be tested, do all widgets have labels, can focusable items attain focus from tab/arrow.
(15:31:34) shaunm: is this something that can be completely automated? like a server constantly running tests?
(15:31:40) joanie: bnitz: do we get the correct events, do those events contain the correct information?
(15:31:41) bnitz: aleiva: No, it's just getting started.
(15:31:45) aleiva: bnitz: ah ok
(15:32:07) fer: so we have a continuous build of GNOME somewhere? build brigade?
(15:32:13) bnitz: shaunm: That's the easy part ;-) Actually for gnome community it will probably be automated based on nightly builds.
(15:32:31) fer: we could add this tests under the glib/gtk testing framework and get then running on those build servers
(15:32:32) aleiva: fer: AFAIK there's some movement towards LDTP
(15:32:46) bnitz: shaunm: We also intend to have our own tinderbox based on sourcejuicer which will build and test based on putbacks.
(15:32:50) joanie: bnitz: One of the things I would like to do during this session is go over everything that we each think needs testing to be sure each of our lists match
(15:32:53) aleiva: fer: ah, CI
(15:32:53) shaunm: I could pull that sort of information into blip, once it's running
(15:33:15) fer: I would prefer having them integrated "upstream"
(15:33:17) bnitz: ideally we could trace failures to putback but practical granularity depends on hw resources and ssuch.
(15:33:27) bnitz: joanie:Yes that's an excellent idea.
(15:33:38) fer: so non a11y developers realize about a11y failures
(15:33:59) joanie: fer: Indeed. And an electrical shock gets administered. :-P
(15:34:06) bnitz: exactly.
(15:34:17) fer: http://live.gnome.org/BuildBrigade
(15:34:22) Bryen: dang... I just had to backspace cuz joanie said just what I was bout to say (re: electric shock)
(15:34:32) joanie: Bryen: spooky
(15:34:36) fer: we need to get that build.gnome.org working however :)
(15:34:45) bnitz: fer:Thanks.
(15:35:16) joanie: So anyhoo bnitz, what would be extremely awesome is if you could fill out some sort of agenda/outline on: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010Schedule
(15:35:40) bnitz: joanie:O.K. I'll do that
(15:35:48) joanie: thanks bnitz.
(15:35:50) ***Bryen knows he still needs to fill out his outreach stuff there too. And will talk to slee about it in the coming week to nail it down
(15:35:58) shaunm: so, hey, I know I was talking about user a11y docs for aegis
(15:35:59) joanie: Bryen: cool, thank you
(15:36:17) joanie: shaunm: yes?
(15:36:21) slee: Bryen: ok with me
(15:36:22) shaunm: but could we also do better at providing developer docs for making more accessible apps?
(15:36:31) joanie: shaunm: indeed
(15:37:02) joanie: shaunm: I'd also like to see a Best Practices guide written up
(15:37:08) shaunm: yeah
(15:37:13) Bryen: shaunm, That's definitely a long-term goal we should be working on. Problem, as always with docs, is people start to work on it then the move on and the docs get outdated. Seems a never-ending cycle :-(
(15:37:14) bnitz: shaunm:Such docs would help me decide what tests we need.
(15:37:26) shaunm: Bryen: story of my life...
(15:37:41) Bryen: For me in Marketing, it would be ideal to have those to point to when I'm talking to people about a11y
(15:37:46) joanie: bnitz: And that's why (lacking such docs) we should include it in the session
(15:37:56) bnitz: I have a few generic tests regarding focus traversal, labels .
(15:38:34) bnitz: joanie:actually let me cut and paste from my intro and you guys can add or subtract:
(15:38:35) joanie: bnitz: are biggest problems are bogus events, events with the incorrect details and any_data, etc.
(15:38:41) bnitz: What makes an application inaccessible?
(15:39:02) bnitz: Missing labels
(15:39:02) bnitz: Widgets which can't receive tab focus
(15:39:02) bnitz: Custom widgets which don't subclass Atk
(15:39:02) bnitz: Confusing/Illogical tab order
(15:39:02) bnitz: UI components which don't respond to theme
(15:39:03) joanie: (oh and broken accessible hierarchies)
(15:39:03) bnitz: Ambiguous association between label and widget
(15:39:45) joanie: bnitz: Also Custom widgets who implement Atk incorrectly
(15:39:46) bnitz: Not sure if I have that custom widget item described properly.
(15:39:48) slee: lack of sensible key access
(15:40:09) clown: bnitz: lack of keyboard nav and activation of widets
(15:40:15) bnitz: slee:Yes. Sensible might be hard to automate but if we can define it...
(15:40:38) joanie: bnitz: And seriously, bogus events, bogus event details, bogus or absent any_data
(15:40:49) slee: could have tab + enter as minimum
(15:40:52) joanie: perhaps choose a different word for 'bogus'
(15:40:59) Bryen: I have a "booth" question to ask where appropriate here
(15:41:06) bnitz: joanie:I'd like to see some examples of this. I don't know enough about it but it sounds important.
(15:41:16) joanie: bnitz: you and I should talk
(15:41:19) joanie: :-)
(15:41:27) joanie: bnitz: I *live* bogus events
(15:41:32) bnitz: joanie: Yes.
(15:41:39) joanie: bnitz: So how about this for a plan:
(15:41:49) joanie: 1. Add your proposed agenda for the session to the wiki
(15:41:55) joanie: 2. We can all look over it
(15:42:05) joanie: 3. We can tweak *if* needed
(15:42:14) joanie: 4. We will have an extremely productive session
(15:42:33) bnitz: Good idea.
(15:42:35) joanie: Those of us from the AT module side (e.g. Orca) should come to the session prepared to demonstrate instances of problems
(15:42:47) joanie: and what their consequences for the AT and users is
(15:42:59) joanie: so that bnitz can find a way to add it to his testing framework
(15:43:10) joanie: and shaunm (and we) can document it
(15:43:35) bnitz: joanie: Good plan.
(15:43:37) heidi: Yes! And please let me know where it is documented.
(15:43:45) joanie: heidi: And when :-)
(15:43:48) shaunm: I'd love if people could demo stuff for me. makes it easier for me to write.
(15:43:49) heidi: I'll point students to it for a learning experience.
(15:43:51) heidi: Right! And when.
(15:44:01) joanie: the reality is right now much of the documentation is an oral tradition
(15:44:27) joanie: I am looking forward to shaunm's documentation session because I would love to find/make time to sit down and write all this stuff out
(15:44:35) Bryen: shaunm, that's another thing. Hopefully in the not-too-distant future (maybe even at AEGIS), I'll be able to do some user videos for demo purposes
(15:44:37) joanie: rather than merely complaining about it and filing bugs
(15:44:52) joanie: shaunm: We have a demo session planned for ....
(15:44:54) ***joanie looks
(15:45:05) joanie: The 4th
(15:45:06) joanie: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010Schedule
(15:45:11) bnitz: Peter had some interesting ideas on using Orca to highlight changes in the accessible tree. But I don't know how we would determine which of these differences are bugs and which are features.
(15:45:13) joanie: After bnitz's testing session
(15:45:21) joanie: bnitz: heh
(15:45:49) joanie: So.... moving on with 15 minutes left to go
(15:45:55) joanie: Bryen: booth. Floor is yours
(15:46:20) Bryen: Question I have regarding handing out media at the booth. I've been thinking about minting about 150 to give out based on Vinux. What do you guys think?
(15:46:30) Bryen: sorry... guys + gals
(15:48:10) Bryen: ok no thoughts. alrighty I'll figure this one out myself then :-)
(15:48:38) clown: what do you mean by "media", Bryen ?
(15:49:04) Bryen: clown, CDs/DVDs
(15:49:19) clown: okay. what's on the CDs?
(15:49:26) clown: a Vinux distro?
(15:49:48) Bryen: Clown, basically give out a distro for people to try. But I was thinking I'd like to give out Vinux cuz its a11y-centric and this is an a11y event
(15:49:56) fer: we can put on the CDs also API and I singing "Alejandro" in rockabilly style :)
(15:49:59) clown: makes sense.
(15:50:14) joanie: fer: That would be teh awesome
(15:50:14) shaunm: Bryen: you can do it as a live CD, yes?
(15:50:21) Bryen: I just want to be sure everyone's cool with the choice of Vinux before I go through the trouble of minting them
(15:50:41) clown: just out of curiousity, would vinux run gnome shell?
(15:50:46) Bryen: shaunm, I believe they have liveCD iso's yes. I'm still waiting for the vinux guys to get back to me with some artwork so I can print out the labels for it
(15:50:47) clown: s/would/could/
(15:51:12) Bryen: clown, I don't know. We'd have to ask the vinux guys. I haven't used it
(15:51:19) shaunm: Bryen: ok, cool. I just think very few people will bother actually installing an OS to play with it
(15:51:42) fer: do they have live-CDs?
(15:51:57) clown: Bryen: just thinking out loud, but we could put ATs that we are working on that could be used as "demos".
(15:52:02) Bryen: shaunm, Right. Although these days, more distros are giving out Live versions integrated on DVD installers. So its getting more moot lately :-)
(15:52:20) Bryen: clown, Like we did at CSUN?
(15:52:32) Bryen: That's the plan, Stan :-)
(15:52:51) clown: For user testing of gs-mag, we put together a live-DVD (Fedora) with gs-mag and Orca. Was that used at CSUN too?
(15:53:06) clown: who is Stan?
(15:53:21) Bryen: Not sure what OS was used on the machine given to us by GNOME.
(15:53:41) Bryen: and whatever that machine was, it won't be the same one as we're using a European kit this time
(15:53:54) Bryen: clown, You're Stan, ain't ya? :-)
(15:53:57) clown: Peter may have supplied it for CSUN, not sure.
(15:54:15) Bryen: Supplied what?
(15:54:22) clown: Bryen, hmm I new nick name....
(15:54:33) clown: the live DVD containing gs-mag and orca
(15:54:46) Bryen: ahh not sure. I wasn't part of the set-up
(15:55:09) clown: or it could have been Ben Konrath (since it was he who made the live DVD).
(15:55:16) Bryen: But we'll figure that out once we get there. we have several days to figure that out and its premature when we don't even know what machine we get
(15:55:28) clown: okay. as I said, just thinking out loud.
(15:55:37) Bryen: :-)
(15:55:48) slee: sounds like a plan
(15:56:01) Bryen: I also plan to get some nice vinyl banners printed up. Looking at some artwork now though
(15:56:19) Bryen: none of that "Printed banners on letter-sized paper" crap we had at CSUN!
(15:56:28) clown: your banners should include pictures of fer and API holding microphones...
(15:56:37) clown: not
(15:56:41) slee: heh
(15:56:41) fer: clown: do you play guitar?
(15:56:51) joanie: So y'all, we have 5 minutes left and one more agenda item. Though I'm not sure how much we have to say about it. So....
(15:56:57) Bryen: fer, he's a clown! He plays the ukelele!
(15:56:58) clown: nope. jaws harp?
(15:57:06) clown: twang, twang
(15:57:06) joanie: Volunteers: GNU's got them; can we provide them with the support they need?
(15:57:18) slee: ouch, my teeth
(15:57:27) fer: what kind of support?
(15:57:33) Bryen: GNU's got what?
(15:57:38) joanie: fer: hard to say
(15:57:41) slee: eh?
(15:57:41) joanie: Bryen: Volunteers
(15:57:59) joanie: Bryen: This is that thing you stepped forward to coordinate
(15:58:01) joanie: :-)
(15:58:02) Bryen: oh volunteers/interns to help out here?
(15:58:10) joanie: Bryen: right
(15:58:18) Bryen: ahh Professor You hasn't come back to me yet. RMS did connect us though
(15:58:23) Bryen: so we have no details yet.
(15:58:27) joanie: see, the problem is GNU is recruiting volunteers
(15:58:35) joanie: which normally would be an awesome thing
(15:58:57) Bryen: Volunteers should nto be recruited before a task is identified. That was the faux pas here :-)
(15:58:58) joanie: but recruiting volunteers who in some cases will be working on GNOME a11y modules they know little about
(15:59:09) joanie: Bryen: (We never asked for this help)
(15:59:17) Bryen: Precisely
(15:59:18) joanie: Bryen: (It is being provided on our behalf)
(15:59:36) joanie: Bryen: (including things which some of us might feel is undesirable)
(15:59:39) joanie: but anyhoo
(15:59:54) ***slee hmms
(15:59:54) joanie: let's say we get these awesome volunteers
(16:00:03) joanie: and they need hand-holding to contribute
(16:00:13) joanie: do we have time to provide the hand-holding?
(16:00:17) joanie: Personally, I do not
(16:00:21) Bryen: joanie, Let's just table this question for now. Each case is a case-by-case basis of what the volunteer/intern/whatever can do and offers to do and I try to match up agreeable folks on our side as the time comes.
(16:00:32) joanie: Bryen: fair enough
(16:00:37) ***joanie is just going through the agenda
(16:00:45) ***joanie is trying to be a good doobie :-)
(16:01:03) Bryen: folks, please don't light up joanie just cuz she said she's a doobie!
(16:01:21) ***clown joanie is a good chair
(16:01:21) joanie: Instead please pass me the ^H^H^H
(16:01:24) clown: person
(16:01:51) joanie: alrighty then. 1 minute over. Any parting shots?
(16:01:55) Bryen: yes
(16:02:01) clown: yes
(16:02:09) clown: but go ahead Bryen
(16:02:19) Bryen: I'd like to propose taht somehow we find a way to further streamline these meetings. We're getting too bogged down in details and it makes the meetings cumbersome
(16:02:39) joanie: Bryen: Do you have suggestions?
(16:02:52) Bryen: a high-level status report should be sufficient for these types of meetigns, and further detailed stuff taken afterwards.
(16:02:56) ***slee has to go
(16:02:59) slee left the room (quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.11/20100701023340]).
(16:03:12) Bryen: For example, all the aegis stuff. Just get someone to be coordinator of all that and be the poker to individual contributors of AEGIS
(16:03:33) Bryen: The AEGIS discussion shouldn't take more than 10-15 mins in a a11y meeting here.
(16:03:53) Bryen: As we're an A11y team, not all about AEGIS. :-)
(16:04:22) joanie: It would be interesting to go through the entire chat log and see where all time is spent (and lost)
(16:04:30) joanie: including idle and irrelevant chit-chat
(16:04:40) Bryen: we should set time limits on topics
(16:04:47) clown: although it could be argued that aegis is a major factor for the next month, then not so much thereafter
(16:05:18) clown: still, a 10-15 min time limit seems about right
(16:05:19) joanie: Speaking just for myself (visual learning disability), I find it really difficult to visually follow a bunch of scrolling text. I can do it, but as I sort through things, having to visually eliminate "noise" is hard
(16:05:22) Bryen: clown, But its not major factor for everyone, plus you can still whittle that down. The specifics and planning etc should be done in a coordination manner
(16:06:00) clown: sure
(16:06:11) joanie: And I cannot help but wonder how much more efficient these meetings would be if we could all just stay focused on the topic at hand
(16:06:16) Bryen: joanie, its not your visual learning disability, there's definitely a chaos to the way we're doing things. But its a learning process for the team :-)
(16:06:18) joanie: and not jump in with other topics
(16:06:25) joanie: until a given topic is complete
(16:06:48) joanie: So I propose the following:
(16:07:00) joanie: 1. We do as Bryen suggested and try to cap things at 15 minutes
(16:07:11) joanie: 2. I will be a b*tch about chit chat :-)
(16:07:23) joanie: and after slapping people enough times :-)
(16:07:28) joanie: perhaps that will stop
(16:07:40) joanie: and the two combined strategies will streamline the meetings sufficiently
(16:07:42) joanie: thoughts?
(16:07:44) Bryen: its not the chit chat that's draggin things down IMO
(16:07:59) Bryen: its the amount of details within the topics we discuss. It's not necessary for a meeting like ours
(16:08:21) joanie: Bryen: Then how about you be the one who jumps in and complains when things get too detailed?
(16:08:29) Bryen: sure
(16:08:34) Bryen: I'm good at complaining
(16:08:43) joanie: We can take the pavlovian approach
(16:08:58) Bryen: am I the dog or pavlov?
(16:09:05) Bryen: wait, don't answer!
(16:09:07) joanie: arguably both
(16:09:13) Bryen: dang! She answered!
(16:09:18) joanie: pavlov when you complain; the dog when you chit chat
(16:09:51) Bryen: ok clown had a topic?
(16:09:51) joanie: anyhoo, clown you had a parting shot?
(16:10:33) clown: yes, but it's not necessarily for the meeting. those interested in some thought about gs-mag can hang around a while?
(16:10:52) joanie: sure clown
(16:15:01) joanie: any other parting shots 10 minutes over?
(16:15:03) clown: actually gs-mag, GConf, Gsettings, and Orca (a twisty little maze)
(16:15:22) ***clown waits for other parting shot to clear
(16:15:34) Bryen: CLEAR!
(16:15:35) joanie: Okay, I'm declaring this meeting over. Thanks y'all for attending!