IRC Log for 0.16 (aka 1.0) Developer Meeting

   1 12:34 <@sandy> Blafasel_ Jc2k dave_largo everaldo__ kapipi_v2 kidk|away lamalex lmoura loki_val nightm4re paulproteus___ rubenv shadymike wolki So who all is here for the meeting?
   2 12:34 <@Blafasel_> Same. Sry for the delay
   3 12:34 < nightm4re> i'll lurk :)
   4 12:34 <@sandy> cool
   5 12:35 <@sandy> okay folks, I'm just going to go ahead and start
   6 12:35 <@sandy> and maybe others will join later
   7 12:35 <@sandy> This meeting is to plan our roadmap for the next cycle of Tomboy development
   8 12:36 <@sandy> the 0.15.x cycle, I guess we can call it for now ;-)
   9 12:36 <@sandy> http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/DevMeetingZeroPointSixteen
  10 12:36 <@sandy> we have compiled some topics to discuss
  11 12:36 <@sandy> and what I want to do is have everybody introduce themselves, and if there is something you're particularly interested in discussing, share, so we can prioritize the flow of this meeting
  12 12:36 <@sandy> I'll start :-)
  13 12:37 <@sandy> I'm Sandy, the current maintainer and lead developer.  I'm super-interested in improvements to sync, Tomdroid, and doing better at bug management
  14 12:37 <@sandy> (your turn)
  15 12:37 -!- Blafasel_ is now known as Blafasel
  16 12:37 <@Blafasel> Fine.
  17 12:37 -!- plaxx[tomdroid] [ce2ff9fb@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #tomboy
  18 12:38 < pcutler> I'm Paul, I've helped out a little with documentation in the past, and I'm interested in sync, an online service and finding other ways I can help out as I can't code
  19 12:38 <@sandy> hey plaxx[tomdroid], we're all just introducing ourselves and saying what we're interested in talking about today
  20 12:38 < plaxx[tomdroid]> cool!
  21 12:38 < plaxx[tomdroid]> is it my turn? ;)
  22 12:38 <@sandy> go for it
  23 12:39 <@sandy> some people prefer stay quiet, that's fine
  24 12:39 < plaxx[tomdroid]> hi I'm Olivier, working on a tomboy client for Android
  25 12:39 <@Blafasel> I'm Ben, started with some patches for Windows (although I'm a linux guy most of the time). I plan to improve the Windows port (Mono.Addins update, print support on Vista and later) and would like to shrink our bug list. Special target of interest: Performance and memory usage.
  26 12:39 < stefans> I'm Stefan, casual Tomboy developer without any specific interests at the moment
  27 12:39 < shana> hi, I'm Andreia, I'm a mono dev and I'm addicted to Tomboy
  28 12:39 <@sandy> shana: "Hi Andreia"
  29 12:40  * shana sits back donw
  30 12:40 < shana> *down
  31 12:40 <@sandy> heh
  32 12:40 <@sandy> okay, anybody else feel free to pipe up
  33 12:40 < plaxx[tomdroid]> I'm interested in sync (web and G1), work on the file format and adding features to Tomdroid (which is very far behind tomboy)
  34 12:40 <@sandy> I'd like to discuss some organizational things first
  35 12:40 < nightm4re> I'm Dave, I had some tiny commits to the now extinct todo list, and I'm interested in sync between windows and lunix.
  36 12:41 <@sandy> For developers: I want to get rid of ChangeLog now that we're on git. Any objections?
  37 12:41 <@sandy> good to see you nightm4re
  38 12:41 <@sandy> stefans: you're right that we need to update the HowToSubmitPatches page
  39 12:41 < shana> yeah, please, kill the changelogs
  40 12:41 <@sandy> I figure we can generate them for tarball releases if we must
  41 12:42 <@sandy> okay, I'll take it to the list and we can discuss conventions later
  42 12:42 <@Blafasel> I'd like to keep them in releases, yes.
  43 12:42 <@Blafasel> There are lots of scripts to generate them, though
  44 12:42 <@Blafasel> No need to do it manually.
  45 12:42 < shana> yeah, it's pretty automated
  46 12:42 <@sandy> yeah, lots of people are talking about it on desktop-devel-list right now
  47 12:42 <@sandy> Okay, I'd like to bring up another topic right away
  48 12:42 <@sandy> I don't see any reason that this cycle can't culminate in a 1.0 release
  49 12:43 <@sandy> we talked about it last cycle and we just didn't do it
  50 12:43 <@sandy> what are the requirements for Tomboy to be 1.0?
  51 12:43 <@sandy> I'm thinking: an XML schema, an agreement about add-in compatibility, and cross-platform support
  52 12:43 < shadymike> (sorry i was late with the intros. phone call. I'm Mike, interested in Tomdroid on my g1 and syncing with Tomboy on Windows)
  53 12:43 < pcutler> only thing that pops in my head is an easier sync to become 1.0
  54 12:44 <@sandy> pcutler: maybe.  I'm not sure it's a hard requirement
  55 12:44 <@sandy> but it is a target for this cycle anyway :-)
  56 12:44 <@Blafasel> Sync and XML schema. Platform compatibility is important and nice, but shouldn't hinder us from 1.0 imo
  57 12:44 <@sandy> okay, cool, glad to hear people are in favor of it
  58 12:44 < shana> for me, a 1.0 app is an app that users can use, stable with complete features
  59 12:45 <@sandy> shana: I think Tomboy meets that, even if sync is a little *hard* to use
  60 12:45 < shana> tomboy is all of those things in my book :)
  61 12:45 <@Blafasel> Mac is lagging behind afaik, Windows suffers from some gtk issues. We shouldn't be afraid to increase the version number because of these 3rd party dependencies.
  62 12:45 -!- everaldo_ [~everaldo@189-54-200-23-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #tomboy
  63 12:45 <@sandy> Blafasel: I don't think any Windows bugs prevent us from saying we are "1.0".  And Mac bugs, well, we can talk about that later. :-)
  64 12:45 <@Blafasel> ;)
  65 12:46 <@sandy> Okay, one more thing I'd like to discuss before we get into exciting new features
  66 12:46 <@sandy> gnome-shell
  67 12:46 <@sandy> Currently the gnome-shell people have no plan for applets, and there's a big discussion going on about what an applet should even be in gnome-shell
  68 12:46 <@sandy> I think it would be great if somebody started thinking a lot about Tomboy in gnome-shell
  69 12:46 <@sandy> given that we're starting over in GNOME with a whole new desktop
  70 12:47 <@sandy> how can we do Tomboy right in that desktop
  71 12:47 <@sandy> I would love to see mockups (patches are always great, too)
  72 12:47 <@Blafasel> Pardon my ignorance: Is Gnome Shell targeted for .26?
  73 12:47 <@sandy> Blafasel: 2.28 will have a preview relesae
  74 12:47 <@sandy> it is targeted to replace our current desktop in 2.30
  75 12:47 <@sandy> (2.26 was the last release)
  76 12:47 <@Blafasel> .28 of course, yes.
  77 12:48 <@sandy> So I think it's important that we are thinking about how to make Tomboy work there
  78 12:48 < shana> nod
  79 12:48 <@sandy> is anybody running gnome-shell?
  80 12:48 <@Blafasel> Only looked at the mockups so far..
  81 12:48 <@sandy> We can discuss this later, I was just curious if anybody was a big gnome-shell nerd and had an opinion to share
  82 12:49 <@sandy> So looking back at the Tomboy 0.13.x cycle, I think we had a lot of good wins
  83 12:49 < shana> dont think anyone is at this point
  84 12:49 <@sandy> I think Windows and Mac support got us a lot of good press
  85 12:49 <@sandy> and Windows support has gotten us new users, new bug reporters, and new developers (hi Blafasel)
  86 12:49 <@Blafasel> (I want to see Tomboy replacing OneNote..)
  87 12:49 < shana> :)
  88 12:50 <@sandy> I'm really glad that we focused on that
  89 12:50 <@sandy> but we can definitely do better with how we manage our bug load
  90 12:50 < everaldo_> hey, I am here
  91 12:50 <@sandy> Tomboy has A LOT of bugs filed
  92 12:50 -!- everaldo_ is now known as everaldo
  93 12:50 <@sandy> hi everaldo_:-)
  94 12:50 <@Blafasel> Hi everaldo 
  95 12:50 < shadymike> (+1 on no more OneNote)
  96 12:50 <@sandy> before we start planning out new features, does anybody have thoughts on how to do better with handling bugs?
  97 12:50 <@sandy> I think if we start targeting bugs early, and prioritizing them, it will help
  98 12:51 <@Blafasel> sandy: I'd like to volunteer on more bug squatting. It's one of my main interest with printing.
  99 12:51 < plaxx[tomdroid]> is there a process to triage bugs?
 100 12:51 < shana> I think perhaps we need to write down some sort of process to deal with bugs
 101 12:51 <@sandy> plaxx[tomdroid]: well, we like to look at bugs without a response and make sure they're at least filed properly
 102 12:51 <@sandy> there are several categories of bugs
 103 12:51 < shana> if people know what should to a bug when it's filed, it's helpful
 104 12:51 < pcutler> http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/TriageGuide
 105 12:51 <@sandy> unreviewed patches
 106 12:51 <@Blafasel> plaxx[tomdroid]: No tomboy specific, afaik. I'd really like to see a "bug day" to kill off a bunch of bugs early this cycle
 107 12:52 <@sandy> Blafasel: that's a great idea
 108 12:52 <@sandy> I wanted to do that last cycle and got really caught up in other things
 109 12:52 < shadymike> I'm a good bug hunter / triage (day job) if there is a bug day.
 110 12:52 < shana> yeah, bug days are good
 111 12:52 <@sandy> shadymike: awesome
 112 12:52 < plaxx[tomdroid]> Blafasel: I would do my best to attend
 113 12:52 <@Blafasel> shana: Nice
 114 12:52 <@sandy> are you all on the list?
 115 12:52 <@sandy> Blafasel, shana, shadymike?
 116 12:53 < everaldo> I am 
 117 12:53 <@Blafasel> Yes
 118 12:53 < shana> if I'm not, I'll be
 119 12:53 <@sandy> we should use the list to plan a bug day
 120 12:53 < shadymike> im on tomdroid but not tomboy
 121 12:53 <@sandy> well, I don't want to spam tomdroid's list
 122 12:53 <@Blafasel> Agreed. Any quick feedback on the current time for meetings, btw?
 123 12:53 <@sandy> Blafasel: good point
 124 12:53 <@sandy> this is 12:30PM for me, right in the middle of my work day
 125 12:54 <@Blafasel> (in other words: Someone tired as hell or still missing coffee?)
 126 12:54 <@sandy> the cool thing about a bug day is it can be all day :-)
 127 12:54 <@sandy> let's plan it on the list
 128 12:55 -!- everaldo__ [~everaldo@189-54-200-23-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
 129 12:55 <@sandy> maybe have it in the next week or two?
 130 12:55 < plaxx[tomdroid]> almost 4pm here, trying to make it look like I am working
 131 12:55 <@Blafasel> sandy: Fine for me. 22:00 here, beer-time ;)
 132 12:55 <@sandy> Blafasel: the better to hack with
 133 12:55 <@sandy> okay, I'm glad people are excited about bug days
 134 12:56 <@sandy> lots of things we can do here, as Blafasel already knows from triaging
 135 12:56 <@sandy> okay, so let's talk about other work for this cycle
 136 12:56 <@sandy> Let's start with sync, since lots of people here are interested in it
 137 12:57 <@sandy> now, I want to avoid getting into detailed specs or design
 138 12:57 <@sandy> so I may cut off discussion if it goes too long :-)
 139 12:57 -!- derekS [~dereks@cpe-66-108-44-109.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #tomboy
 140 12:57 <@sandy> but from where I sit, I see a few area of sync that need attention:
 141 12:57 <@sandy> 1) automatic background synchronization
 142 12:57 <@sandy> 2) (related to above) better conflict resolution
 143 12:57 <@sandy> 3) making sync easier to set up
 144 12:58 <@sandy> 4) For advanced users, migrating from FUSE to gio/gvfs
 145 12:58 <@sandy> am I forgetting anything?
 146 12:58 <@sandy> well, part of (3) is the idea of a tomboy online service
 147 12:58 <@sandy> I guess that's related
 148 12:58 < pcutler> cross platform?
 149 12:58 < shadymike> can i suggest having webdav sync on Windows. its not there at least when installed with the msi.
 150 12:59 <@sandy> shadymike: so just to explain
 151 12:59 <@sandy> we implement ssh and webdav sync with FUSE on Linux
 152 12:59 < everaldo> sandy, for 3 I think that we must implement it in a way that works with Mozilla Weave servers
 153 12:59 <@sandy> shadymike: and FUSE is not available on Windows
 154 12:59 <@sandy> so that's why it's not a simple matter of recompiling
 155 13:00 < everaldo> is gvfs available for windows?
 156 13:00 <@sandy> no idea
 157 13:00 <@Blafasel> Don't think so
 158 13:00 < shadymike> (have to duck out for 30m)
 159 13:00 <@sandy> cool
 160 13:00 <@sandy> okay, let's start with (1)
 161 13:00 <@Blafasel> I guess the best bet for cross platform would really be a RESTful online storage.
 162 13:00 <@sandy> Blafasel: that is my opinion as well
 163 13:00 <@Blafasel> Or - "native" support for dropbox
 164 13:01 <@sandy> now, a long time ago we documented some thoughts for background sync
 165 13:01 -!- jeff_ [~jstedfast@130.57.22.201] has joined #tomboy
 166 13:01 -!- mode/#tomboy [+o jeff_] by morbo
 167 13:01 <@sandy> http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/Synchronization/Background
 168 13:01 <@sandy> hey jeff_
 169 13:01 <@jeff_> hey
 170 13:01 < shana> howdy jeff
 171 13:01 < everaldo> hey jeff_ 
 172 13:01 <@sandy> I think the worst thing about Tomboy sync right now is needing to sync manually
 173 13:01 < plaxx[tomdroid]> hi jeff_ 
 174 13:01 <@sandy> even if setting it up sucks, you only do that once
 175 13:02 <@jeff_> (don't mind me, I'm just idling)
 176 13:02 <@sandy> you sync all the time
 177 13:02 < shana> sandy: I wouldn't say the worst, but it's definitely up there in suckyness
 178 13:02 <@sandy> no, with the current sync infrastructure
 179 13:02 <@sandy> s/no/now
 180 13:02 < derekS> hey guys, is there a VisualStudio project  Ican download to play with developing tomboy on windows?
 181 13:02 <@sandy> derekS: yes
 182 13:03 < derekS> sandy: link?
 183 13:03 <@sandy> http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/Building/Windows
 184 13:03 <@sandy> but we just switched to git
 185 13:03 <@Blafasel> derekS: Part of the tarball (or repository)
 186 13:03 <@sandy> so the docs are slightly out-of-date
 187 13:03 <@sandy> Blafasel: I think a lot of stuff is not in the tarball
 188 13:03 < derekS> thanks!
 189 13:03 <@sandy> derekS: the svn server is still online, at least, so you can mess around with it :-)
 190 13:03 <@sandy> as I was saying...
 191 13:04 <@sandy> with the current sync infrastructure, it would be easy to automate sync
 192 13:04 <@sandy> but the problem is that we currently block the UI during sync
 193 13:04 <@sandy> so there are some things to worry about
 194 13:04 <@sandy> 1) do you block the UI
 195 13:04 <@sandy> 2) how do you handle conflicts, does user have to deal with them right away
 196 13:04 -!- knocte [~knocte@130.57.22.201] has joined #tomboy
 197 13:04 -!- mode/#tomboy [+o knocte] by morbo
 198 13:04 <@sandy> 3) do we have to worry about to Tomboy's constantly blocking each other when they try to auto-sync
 199 13:05 <@sandy> hi knocte
 200 13:05 < shana> if its automatic, it should never block
 201 13:05 <@knocte> hi
 202 13:05 <@sandy> shana: only one Tomboy can sync with the server at a time
 203 13:05 < everaldo> for 1 we can use tray area notifications 
 204 13:05 <@sandy> oh, you mean blocking the UI
 205 13:05 < shana> sandy: sure, but if it's automatic, the ui shouldn't block
 206 13:05 < shana> yeah
 207 13:05 < shana> nobody cares if its synching, basically
 208 13:05 < shana> you only care when it doesnt work :)
 209 13:06 <@sandy> :-)
 210 13:06 < shana> the conflict resolution gui is something we need to consider carefully
 211 13:06 <@sandy> in theory, if autosync is happening all the time, conflicts will be extremely rare
 212 13:06 < everaldo> we can change the icons when syncing and if we got conflicts the icon can change agai for something with "!"
 213 13:06 < shana> sandy: yeah, probably
 214 13:06 <@sandy> everaldo: yes, that would be great
 215 13:06 < shana> and probably not let it synch again until they're fixed
 216 13:07 <@sandy> good point
 217 13:07 <@sandy> I really like GEdit
 218 13:07 <@sandy> the bar at the top of a file when something has been edited that you have open
 219 13:07 < everaldo> and when we have this sync notification the clic on tomboy icon open a conflict resolution window
 220 13:07 <@sandy> maybe we can do something like that
 221 13:07 <@sandy> everaldo: that is also a good idea
 222 13:07 < shana> sandy: yeah, anjuta does it too when reloading
 223 13:07 < shana> it's very handy
 224 13:08 <@sandy> I think we can do a lot with making notes read-only in these sorts of situations
 225 13:08 <@sandy> instead of blocking the UI
 226 13:08 < plaxx[tomdroid]> conflict resolution is too geeky for average user IMO
 227 13:08 <@sandy> plaxx[tomdroid]: yeah, there's definitely a balance
 228 13:08 < shana> plaxx[tomdroid]: it has to be done in some way, only the user can choose the right version
 229 13:08 < shana> we just need to make it easy and non-geeky
 230 13:09 <@sandy> we do have the option of automatically resolving stuff
 231 13:09 < shana> sure, I'm thinking actual conflicts that can't be resolved automatically
 232 13:09 -!- burgdorf [~burgdorf@U2b9c.u.pppool.de] has joined #tomboy
 233 13:09 <@sandy> hi burgdorf
 234 13:09 < shana> hopefully we get so good that never happens :)
 235 13:09 <@sandy> yeah, taht would rock
 236 13:09 <@sandy> okay, well, I think we are all on the same page
 237 13:09 <@sandy> let's move on
 238 13:09 < everaldo> what kind of conflicts cant be resolved automatically?
 239 13:10 < burgdorf> hi there, thought I join and just listen a bit...I might join bugfixing soon :-)
 240 13:10 <@sandy> everaldo: two computers offline for awhile, both edit the same note
 241 13:10 <@sandy> same as with svn :-)
 242 13:10 <@sandy> shana: so is this still something you're interested in working on?
 243 13:10 < everaldo> sandy, I see two ways to resolve conflict:
 244 13:10 < everaldo> 1) Use last edited one
 245 13:11 <@sandy> shana: I mean, would it be appropriate for us to put your name on a roadmap as having it assigned?
 246 13:11 <@Blafasel> Maybe we can make it easy and "dumb". "Choose one of these notes. Which is do you want to keep" or something. With the ability to rename/copy the other.
 247 13:11 < shana> sandy: oh yeah
 248 13:11 <@Blafasel> No merge or something.
 249 13:11 < everaldo> 2) Use last one and create a new note with old note
 250 13:11 <@sandy> Blafasel: agree, that's waht we do right now, but it's not visual enough, you can't see each note when you decide
 251 13:11 < shana> sandy: I currently have three machines where I dump notes in and I'm constantly in fear of synching
 252 13:11 < shana> so yes, it's one of those things that I really need working perfectly ;)
 253 13:11 <@sandy> okay, great
 254 13:12 <@sandy> then let's move on
 255 13:12 <@sandy> what was (2)?
 256 13:12 <@sandy> oh, conflict resolution
 257 13:12 <@sandy> I'd rather discuss this on the list or in the bug (there is a bug for this)
 258 13:12 <@Blafasel> See above ;)
 259 13:12 <@sandy> (3) was making sync easier
 260 13:12 <@sandy> now, about this
 261 13:12 <@sandy> we can do all sorts of hacks with FUSE, or switch to GVFS or whatever
 262 13:12 <@sandy> but that is all targeting advanced users
 263 13:13 <@sandy> so in my opinion we have two choices:
 264 13:13 <@sandy> 1) make Tomboy work great with an existing online note-taking service
 265 13:13 <@sandy> 2) make our own online service for letting users sync their notes
 266 13:13 <@sandy> (1) has a lot of problems
 267 13:13 <@sandy> a) no equivalent service that I know of
 268 13:13 <@sandy> b) typical problem of proprietary service providers
 269 13:13 <@sandy> (2) has the advantage of being open source
 270 13:13 < plaxx[tomdroid]> c) often ability to pull but not to push notes
 271 13:13 <@sandy> and anybody can deploy an instance on their own server
 272 13:14 <@Blafasel> 2 has the disadvantage, that the average joe has no server though
 273 13:14 <@sandy> we can offer a free service, and if people dont' trust us with their data, they can run their own
 274 13:14 < everaldo> I am working on a sync server
 275 13:14 <@sandy> Blafasel: right, which is why we make one
 276 13:14 < shana> there's the whole issue of what exactly gets published so private info doesn't leak, too
 277 13:14 < everaldo> and right now I am implementing same api than mozilla weave
 278 13:14 <@sandy> so just to briefly share what one guy is working on
 279 13:14 <@sandy> Brad
 280 13:14 < everaldo> and one nice thing is to encript data before send to server
 281 13:15 <@sandy> he is working on a Tomboy service
 282 13:15 <@sandy> where you can sync your notes, of course
 283 13:15 <@sandy> but you can also view them, which is nice for mobile users
 284 13:15 <@sandy> and share them, mark them public/private, etc
 285 13:15 <@sandy> eventually, edit them
 286 13:15 <@sandy> so assuming we like this, the only question is, "how do the notes get there"
 287 13:16 <@sandy> and that's a separate line of work, to design a good REST API for syncing notes
 288 13:16 <@sandy> http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/Synchronization/REST
 289 13:16 <@sandy> we've started brainstorming this
 290 13:16 <@sandy> so that's full disclosure of what has been on *my* mind
 291 13:16 <@sandy> everaldo: I was kind of talking over you, so why don't you present your idea now
 292 13:17 < everaldo> well, I am working on a simple server in php that implements mozilla weave api
 293 13:17 < everaldo> I know that mozilla creates one server but the code looks ugly
 294 13:18 < everaldo> so, basically weave api is a webdav server
 295 13:18 < burgdorf> if this is dump, just skip it....but can not dropbox be used for syncing?
 296 13:18 < everaldo> where you call http://server/version/user/type of object/id
 297 13:18 <@sandy> burgdorf: not really, we'll discuss in a bit
 298 13:18 < burgdorf> ok
 299 13:19 < everaldo> the advantage to make a service using same weave structure is that
 300 13:19 < everaldo> you can sync firefox, tomboy and any other program to same server
 301 13:19 < everaldo> we can use private servers or public ones like mozilla one
 302 13:19 < everaldo> and also it solve some security problems
 303 13:19 <@sandy> everaldo: my understanding of weave was that it was totally data agnostic
 304 13:20 < everaldo> yes, it is 
 305 13:20 <@sandy> so it wouldn't be able to be "smart" and handle things like transactions
 306 13:20 < everaldo> because objects (notes in our case) are encripted before send to server
 307 13:20 < shana> that is more the "use existing service" thing, where we end up having to add everything we would need to do on our own service anyway
 308 13:21 <@sandy> well, it would be implemented a lot like our existing sync to any folder
 309 13:21 <@sandy> lock files, revision directories, etc
 310 13:21 < everaldo> mozilla weave is already available and we really dont depends on my server
 311 13:21 < everaldo> we can use the available one
 312 13:21 <@sandy> everaldo: how does that work if you want to have an online service for viewing notes?
 313 13:22 <@sandy> does weave have ideas about sharing objects with other users?
 314 13:22 <@Blafasel> everaldo: Are you working on the server first? Is there already sync (client) support?
 315 13:22 < everaldo> sandy, well, good question, basically you will need to implement the same "decript" api
 316 13:22 < everaldo> which means that you will need to store your pass phrase on a server
 317 13:23 < everaldo> Blafasel, both, client in C# and server in PHP
 318 13:23 <@Blafasel> everaldo: Both work in progress? Beta? Available somewhere? =)
 319 13:23 <@sandy> interesting
 320 13:24 < everaldo> Blafasel, work in progress... start two weekends ago and is my weekend project :)
 321 13:24 <@sandy> everaldo: so I think we should take some time to discuss this in depth
 322 13:24 < everaldo> Blafasel, I can start to publish code in some place
 323 13:24 <@sandy> on the mailing list
 324 13:24 <@sandy> yeah, code would be awesome
 325 13:24 <@Blafasel> everaldo: github? ;)
 326 13:24 < everaldo> Blafasel, yes, could be
 327 13:24 <@Blafasel> (We have to learn git anyway)
 328 13:25 <@sandy> I'd like to have a better understanding of how we could use it to implement sync and also services, public sharing of notes, etc
 329 13:25 < everaldo> yes, I already start to put things in github just to learn git so... it is a good idea
 330 13:25 <@sandy> okay, cool
 331 13:26 <@sandy> as long as we have something that can work on mac, windows, and Tomdroid, and other clients, I will be happy!
 332 13:26 <@sandy> hmm, does anybody have other sync-related topics they want to discuss?
 333 13:26 < everaldo> yes, the idea is to have the client library in 100% c#
 334 13:26 <@sandy> I think we covered everything I planned to talk about for sync
 335 13:26 < shana> sounds like it
 336 13:26 < everaldo> is anyone interested in port fuse code to gvfs?
 337 13:27 -!- vern [~djohnston@67.97.90.194] has joined #tomboy
 338 13:27 <@sandy> I'm interested in accepting it, but for my own work I'd rather focus on the online stuff first, because it will help more users in my opinion
 339 13:27 <@sandy> hi vern!
 340 13:27 < vern> hi
 341 13:27 < vern> sory sorry sorry
 342 13:27 < vern> got stuck in a meeting
 343 13:27 <@sandy> no worries
 344 13:27 <@sandy> so vern is another tomboy online guy
 345 13:27 <@sandy> he did a cool prototype service on google app engine
 346 13:28 <@sandy> vern: I think we just finished talking about sync :-)
 347 13:28 <@sandy> everaldo has an idea to use Mozilla Weave
 348 13:28 <@sandy> but we're going to discuss in depth on the mailing list
 349 13:28 < vern> great!
 350 13:29 <@sandy> vern: also, I started on this: http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/Synchronization/REST
 351 13:29 <@sandy> so no matter how we do this, there is a lot of opportunity to work in parallel
 352 13:29 <@sandy> an online service just cares that the notes are there; it doesn't care what API got them there
 353 13:29 <@sandy> so if you like hacking on web stuff, you can start that real soon
 354 13:29 < plaxx[tomdroid]> for Tomdroid I would really be interested in a solid REST api
 355 13:30 < plaxx[tomdroid]> and having two clients (tomboy / tomdroid) to test would be really good to stabilize the API i think
 356 13:30 <@sandy> brad is in Ireland for the week but soon we'll have code out there for people to play with (django/python)
 357 13:30 < vern> sandy: you're totally right on the parallel paths
 358 13:30 <@sandy> honestly, my biggest concern is just to make sync easier
 359 13:31 <@sandy> I don't care if there's a website where you just sign up and all you see is a blank white page, as long as you can use it for sync :-P
 360 13:31 < vern> once a solid rest interface is agreed on, people can really start to play with whatever ideas they want
 361 13:31 < shana> :)
 362 13:31 <@sandy> yup
 363 13:31 <@sandy> sorry, I go on about this, I'm just excited!
 364 13:31 <@sandy> let's see, what else did we want to cover...
 365 13:31 <@sandy> performance issues
 366 13:32 <@sandy> so there are a lot of ways we can start to improve Tomboy performance
 367 13:32 <@sandy> both memory and startup time
 368 13:32 <@sandy> for memory, we can clean up add-ins quite a bit still
 369 13:32 < vern> i ran some profiles a really long time ago, which seemd to show big differences btwn linux and windows
 370 13:32 < vern> on the memory side
 371 13:32 <@sandy> also, we can spin off note loading and add-in loading in a seprate thread, probably
 372 13:33 < vern> it seems the windows GC is much more proactive
 373 13:33 <@sandy> yeah, it's true that Mono has some issues that .NET does not
 374 13:33 <@sandy> so hopefully as we hunt this stuff down, we can also help Mono improve the situation for *everybody*
 375 13:33 <@sandy> I think vern was looking at a memory leak bug we have
 376 13:33 < vern> right
 377 13:33 < shana> we could do a two-step load that loads the ui and then loads up notes, with a nice spinning logo if a user wants to see notes while they're loading
 378 13:33 <@sandy> so, that's not typical startup/memory stuff, but it's a common bug and illustrates that we defintely have work
 379 13:34 <@sandy> shana: yes, I love animation :-)
 380 13:34 < shana> not sure I like it, but most users probably don't go see notes right on startup, so it would give the sense that things loads faster
 381 13:34 <@sandy> yup
 382 13:35 <@sandy> a user is not going to notice if the first time they click on the Tomboy icon, it takes a bit of time
 383 13:35 <@sandy> compared to now where it potentially blocks login
 384 13:35 < plaxx[tomdroid]> the problem I see with note loading and memory is: "how do you link note titles (used in links) with files (uuid represented)?"
 385 13:35 < plaxx[tomdroid]> you need to keep all notes in memory because of that, don't you?
 386 13:35 <@sandy> plaxx[tomdroid]: well, you have to load them initially, yes
 387 13:35 <@sandy> but that's not really where we hurt
 388 13:35 < shana> sandy:  I frankly never notice it, ever, even on the laptop, but I guess that could happen
 389 13:36 <@sandy> plaxx[tomdroid]: I'm not worried about optimizing that until we clean up other things
 390 13:36 <@sandy> on Android I'm sure it's a more pressing issue
 391 13:36 <@sandy> but not so much on desktops
 392 13:36 < plaxx[tomdroid]> haha not really, I screwed up big time with multithreading for the 0.1 release ;)
 393 13:37 <@sandy> plaxx[tomdroid]: hopefully new users will help out!
 394 13:37 <@sandy> hope it wasn't too premature to blog about your first release
 395 13:37 <@sandy> well, looking at what we've discussed
 396 13:37 <@sandy> it looks like shana is interested in background sync
 397 13:37 <@sandy> everaldo and I are interested in the online sync API stuff
 398 13:38 <@sandy> also vern, yes?
 399 13:38 -!- plaxx[tomdroid] is now known as plaxx
 400 13:38 <@sandy> and brad and some others for the online service
 401 13:38 < vern> right
 402 13:38 -!- vimzard [~arunchaga@203.199.213.3] has joined #tomboy
 403 13:38 <@sandy> hi vimzard
 404 13:38 < vimzard> sandy: hey :-)
 405 13:38 <@sandy> Blafasel wants to help with bug squashing and performance issues
 406 13:38 <@sandy> me, too
 407 13:39 <@sandy> plaxx: I want to use your XML schema
 408 13:39 <@sandy> I need to get on top of reviewing that
 409 13:39 <@sandy> so what are we missing?
 410 13:39 <@Blafasel> Aye
 411 13:39 < pcutler> I'll help with bug triaging as well
 412 13:39 <@sandy> we have nobody to work on OS X, gnome-shell, or the website
 413 13:39 <@sandy> pcutler: rock
 414 13:39 < vern> is that the XML schema that came out of tomdroid?
 415 13:39 <@sandy> vern: yes, I haven't reviewed it yet
 416 13:39 <@sandy> is there another one?
 417 13:39 < plaxx> yes, its incomplete though
 418 13:39 < everaldo> I can help with bugs, at least 6~8 per week, not enouth but can help a little
 419 13:39 < plaxx> its filed as a bug
 420 13:39 < vern> no, there isn't
 421 13:40 < everaldo> 6~8 hours
 422 13:40 <@Blafasel> gnome-shell is interesting as well
 423 13:40 <@sandy> everaldo: that is great
 424 13:40 <@sandy> Blafasel: yes
 425 13:40 <@sandy> so I will make sure to continue soliciting help for that
 426 13:40 <@sandy> and with any luck, we'll have Tomboy 1.0 in less than six months
 427 13:41 <@sandy> oh and for anybody who missed it, we're going to get rid fo the ChangeLog
 428 13:41 <@sandy> we'll discuss new practices related to git on-list
 429 13:41 <@sandy> okay, I think that's everything
 430 13:41 <@sandy> pcutler: am I forgetting anything?
 431 13:41 < pcutler> sandy: not that I see, I was just reviewing lgo too
 432 13:41 <@sandy> did anybody else want to share their ideas?
 433 13:41 <@sandy> we didn't talk about making add-ins easier to find, actually
 434 13:41 < plaxx> sandy: I would have a quick one for you guys
 435 13:42 <@sandy> plaxx: go for it
 436 13:42 < plaxx> what would be the better way for a desktop sync with the G1?
 437 13:42 <@Blafasel> homepage updates? Did I miss those?
 438 13:42 < plaxx> nautilus, tomboy add-in or...
 439 13:42 < plaxx> maybe banshee (itunes like)
 440 13:42 < pcutler> Blafasel: yeah, i was about to ask what we wanted to do for the website as well
 441 13:42 <@sandy> plaxx: yeah, that's a tough one
 442 13:42 < everaldo> sandy, whats about FileSystemWatcher for notes folder or and dbus call to reload notes
 443 13:42 <@Blafasel> The site still claims that 0.13.5 or 0.13.6 is current
 444 13:43 <@sandy> Blafasel: eugh, that is not our fault
 445 13:43 <@sandy> the website update script for GNOME is still svn-based
 446 13:43 <@sandy> waiting on a fix
 447 13:43 <@sandy> anybody who wants to help fix, ping owen in #git
 448 13:43 <@sandy> I updated the website the same day I mailed the release email
 449 13:43 <@Blafasel> ;)
 450 13:44 <@sandy> plaxx: so, in my opinion, we must have a Tomboy add-in
 451 13:44 < vern> sandy: did I miss that we're moving to git?
 452 13:44 <@sandy> it's not fair to require Banshee, conduit, or whatever
 453 13:44 <@sandy> vern: all of GNOME moved
 454 13:44 <@sandy> I'll email the list about it soon
 455 13:44 <@sandy> plaxx: so, we can enhance other software, but I think it's a requirement for us to support it straight from Tomboy
 456 13:45 <@sandy> still, I hope online sync will be the favored solution
 457 13:45 <@sandy> and if people are using *both*, well, that is an interesting use case to consider :-)
 458 13:45 < plaxx> sandy: yeah with unlimited data plans it'll be the way but for others a desktop sync would be preferable
 459 13:45 <@sandy> everaldo: yes, I think we should have that option
 460 13:45 < vimzard> sandy: i'm pretty late/out of touch, but what's the word on the awesome web interface for tomboy?
 461 13:45 < plaxx> sandy: for the website, is the source in git so we can provide patches?
 462 13:46 <@sandy> plaxx: yes, it's in gnomeweb-wml
 463 13:46 <@sandy> which is HUGE
 464 13:46 < shana> sandy: are you talking about doing synch to multiple targets at the same time?
 465 13:46 <@sandy> like a 500MB git repo
 466 13:46 < everaldo> sandy, it will make possible to use other programs to sync tomboy (rsync, unison) without kill tomboy first
 467 13:46  * plaxx shrugs
 468 13:46 <@sandy> shana: I'm talking about sometimes using the web to sync your G1, and sometimes pushing the files directly from Tomboy to your plugged-in G1
 469 13:47 <@sandy> everaldo: yes, but there are issues to explore with it
 470 13:47 < shana> sandy: ah yes, definitely support multiple synch targets
 471 13:47 < shana> I need that
 472 13:47 <@sandy> everaldo: but yes, I want to support it, at least optionally
 473 13:47 <@sandy> vimzard: hi!
 474 13:47 <@sandy> vimzard: the word is, the code/project is not up yet
 475 13:48 <@sandy> the main guy is in Ireland for the week
 476 13:48 <@sandy> keep an eye out for updates soon
 477 13:48 <@sandy> it's a django app
 478 13:48 < vimzard> sandy: i'd like to help there. i've some experience with the "web" and django (yay) + vacations starting soon :-)
 479 13:48 <@sandy> the idea is for us to offer a free service to all tomboy users, but also let advanced users deploy their own instance if they want
 480 13:48 <@sandy> vimzard: that is great, we definitely will need help!
 481 13:48 < pcutler> kind of like identica vs laconica?
 482 13:49 <@sandy> pcutler: yes
 483 13:49 <@sandy> great analogy
 484 13:49 < pcutler> there, I added value  :)
 485 13:49 <@sandy> if it gets popular, though, we may need to beg for money or place ads
 486 13:49 <@sandy> we shall see
 487 13:50 <@sandy> I really hope to have something for users to test (danger eats notes) within a month, but we'll see
 488 13:50 <@sandy> okay, well, I think we can end the meeting
 489 13:50 < vimzard> sandy: sounds awesome. 
 490 13:50 <@sandy> we have some work to put on the roadmap
 491 13:50 < vern> ..or rely on google
 492 13:50 <@sandy> some names to put on them
 493 13:50 <@sandy> pcutler has taken notes and will post a summary
 494 13:51 <@sandy> and we can start some new discussion son the list
 495 13:51 <@sandy> so yeah, vern's idea of using appengine is awesome because we don't have to pay
 496 13:51 <@sandy> but it's hard to write app engine apps that you can deploy elsewhere
 497 13:51 <@sandy> and app engine has a lot of limitations
 498 13:52 < vern> if we django-ize things generically for all the sync, then different frontends should be doable
 499 13:52 <@sandy> so it might be cool to have an online service that impelements the REST API on app engine
 500 13:52 <@sandy> exactly
 501 13:52 <@sandy> well, database differences make it non-trivial
 502 13:52 <@sandy> but still totally doable
 503 13:52 < plaxx> hurray!
 504 13:52 <@sandy> everybody, thanks for coming and sharing your ideas
 505 13:53 < vern> thanks sandy
 506 13:53 <@sandy> I'm really looking forward to this cycle
 507 13:53 < shana> thx sandy 
 508 13:53 <@sandy> feel free to hang out and keep chatting about stuff
 509 13:53 <@sandy> but I think we're done with our meeting :-)
 510 13:53 < everaldo> hehe
 511 13:53 <@Blafasel> ;)